Speaker 1:
From the library of the New York Stock Exchange, at the corner of Wall and Broad streets in New York City, you're inside the ICE House, our podcast from Intercontinental Exchange, on markets, leadership and vision in global business, the dream drivers that have made the NYSE an indispensable institution for global growth for more than 225 years. Each week, we feature stories of those who hatch plans, create jobs, and harness the engine of capitalism, right here, right now at the N Y C, and at ICE's 12 exchanges and seven clearing houses around the world. Now here's your host, Josh King, head of communications at Intercontinental Exchange.
Josh King:
We've talked on this show in the past, about how technology, in particular, water desalination, can help address some of the many challenges in the developing world. But what about financial technology, FinTech, as it's called? Today, inside the ICE House, we'll be discussing how FinTech, through microlending in private investment, is opening up access to capital and lifting millions across the globe out of poverty. Here's a quote, "Technology has fundamentally changed how we send and receive money, purchase insurance, or even think about currency. It will continue to transform nearly every conceivable financial activity." Those are the words of Michael Schlein, today's guest, the president and CEO of Accion, a nonprofit organization that in 1973, introduced Brazil's first microlending program, to transform the urban working poor into small time entrepreneurs, helping them through that, to lift them out of poverty. Before we start with Michael, after the break, here's a recording of the founder of that micro lending program, Bruce Tippet, 45 years ago.
Bruce Tippet:
We came up with the name micro enterprise, to get the banking world to start thinking about these little economic activities as serious enterprise, and that stuck. And that was very important for the program. It worked with the bankers and it gave the micro entrepreneurs status that they'd never had before.
Josh King:
By 2015, Tippet's original experiment had grown to include six million active borrowers who provide for 30 million family members and employees across 21 countries. 75% of the borrowers are women. And the average first loan for businesses outside the U.S. is just north of 1000 bucks. It's a great story. Our conversation with Michael, right after this.
Speaker 1:
Inside the ICE House is presented this week by the Secure Financial Transaction Infrastructure, or the SFTI Network. SFTI is the backbone of the ICE platform providing high security, high speed, direct market access and trade execution capabilities to over 150 global markets. SFTI connects data and analytics from more than 600 proprietary and third party market sources. More on safety later in the show.
Josh King:
Michael Schlein was named president and CEO of Accion in 2009. Under his leadership, the organization has doubled the number of clients it provides with loans, savings accounts, and other financial services. Earlier in his life, Michael was a senior executive at City Group, where helping to lead the City Foundation, he first got involved with Accion on microfinance projects. His job takes him all over the world, but his interests remain close to home as well. New York mayor, Bill de Blasio appointed him chairman of the NYC Economic Development Corporation, a homecoming, of sorts, for while Michael served a stint in Washington at the Securities and Exchange Commission as chief of staff to then chairman, Arthur Levit. He spent a lot of time in city government in economic development positions, under mayors Ed Koch and David Dinkins. Welcome, Michael Schlein, to the ICE House.
Michael Schlein:
It's a pleasure to be here.
Josh King:
The rarefied walls of the New York Stock Exchange, a little different from your travel itinerary over the last few weeks, where have you been?
Michael Schlein:
Where haven't I been most recently, I was in Hyderabad, India, relative, it's a big city now, but also we have partners and clients working in pretty remote areas in India, as well as the rest of the world.
Josh King:
It always keeps you on the move.
Michael Schlein:
Let me take one step back to talk about our mission and what we're trying to do, especially here at the Intercontinental Exchange. This is the center of Wall Street, the center of this incredible global financial system, which for many people works very, very well, but for three billion people, it is invisible. It fails them completely. They are invisible to it, and it is invisible to them. They live in or near poverty, or they lack access to, or have really poor access to the global financial system. In just the last several years, we now have tools that we believe can really change that. Accion started in 1961 and our vision is to create a financially inclusive world that makes the financial system work for everyone.
Michael Schlein:
We here, can take for granted, you have credit cards in your pocket, you have debit cards, you have ATMs on every corner, you can get appropriate insurance for health, for your home, for fire. You can get credit to go to school, to build a home, to build a business. And also think about this. You get... Your bills come in monthly and your income pretty much comes in monthly, and that's really, really convenient.
Michael Schlein:
For three billion people, they have absolutely none of that. They may spend, a typical person in poverty is a woman living in rural agricultural, let's say Kenya or India, she may have to travel hours to make a single payment, to keep the electrical utilities on. Her income, she gets paid once a year at the time of the harvest, and she has to make that work all year round, but she lacks a safe place to save. Think about that phrase, a safe place to save. Again, we take that for granted, as we can and as we should, but for billions of people, they don't have any of that. And their life is so much harder. And we have to change that, it's not fair.
Josh King:
So they get a year's pay at the time of harvest. Is it cash? What do they do?
Michael Schlein:
Literally they, cash, jewelry, livestock, livestock can get sick and die. Jewelry can get stolen, and of course cash can also get stolen, and they keep it in their homes and they hide it. And it's very, very hard. I'll give you a story. I was in Manaus, in the Amazon in Brazil, and I met a woman named Anna Lucia, and she would spend half of every single day going to and from the market to get materials to make a single dress. And if she could make that dress and sell that dress, she could bring home food for her children.
Michael Schlein:
We gave her a $300 loan, small loan, and with that, she could buy materials for two weeks at one time. So all of a sudden, she, first of all, now has a new business because she's now selling materials to other women like herself. And secondly, she has half of each day to work productively. Imagine if I could give you a small loan and give you another half of every single day, and that just shows you the enormous inefficiencies and the waste of life at the base of the pyramid. But for her, that opportunity, that small loan really opened up enormous opportunity.
Josh King:
Let's go back a little bit. You mentioned that Accion was formed in 1961. Some of your predecessors, Michael Chu and Maria Otero. Yeah.
Michael Chu:
What is happening here, is that there's one small business person that needs a loan to have all the raw materials to produce the candy. And Accion is the link that ties what is happening here to the financial markets of the world. Because by borrowing from the capital markets of the world, we are able, through our methodology, to bring it right here.
Maria Otero:
From the very beginning, Accion believed that it was important not to provide loans in what we would call a paternalistic way. If we were really thinking about these people that we were working with, and thinking about their sense of dignity, and thinking about what they were trying to accomplish on their own against enormous odds, we had to treat them with the respect that was needed. And surprisingly, part of that respect was lending them money and charging them for it.
Josh King:
Michael Chu and Maria Otero.
Michael Schlein:
The Accion they're talking about in the industry at that time, was very focused on micro credit. I think over the last several years, we've all come to appreciate that it's not just credit. You really need the full array of financial services. You need a safe place to save. You need insurance, you do need credit. You also need fast, efficient ways of making payments and also remittances, and then you need the knowledge to use all that. And in fact, I think the industry has learned a lot where, if you don't have the other financial services, the loan product, a loan can get abused. So for example, you should be saving to pay for your kid's school, but instead, sometimes people would borrow for that. If there was a fire or a death in the family, people would take out a loan. They should have had insurance for that.
Michael Schlein:
So, our real vision, our vision, and it's not just ours, it's really the, it's sort of a financial inclusion movement, is that we need that broad array of financial services, because these are the tools that make your life easier. And again, we take it all for granted here, but for billions of people, they don't have any of it. And their lives are much, much harder because of that.
Josh King:
I'm looking at a graphic that you shared with me before we went on the air, of the Accion Gateway Fund portfolio, provides equity and quasi equity capital to MFIs that demonstrate a potential for strong financial and social returns to their shareholders. How do you go about evaluating these projects and make the decision to invest in them?
Michael Schlein:
So we are today, probably the leading FinTech investor in seed level companies focused on financial inclusion. Again, we're a nonprofit, but everything that we do, we're all about trying to harness the capital markets to accomplish our mission. If you're trying to deal with billions of people living in or near poverty, you need something as powerful as the capital markets, just a little bit of history. We started out in 1961 as largely a private sector Peace Corps. And as you mentioned earlier, in the early seventies, we said our clients need more than community development, they need capital. We began making very small loans in the early seventies, Dr. Yunus was doing it in Bangladesh, others were doing it in Southeast Asia, and micro credit began. We, Accion, then built a string of nonprofits to make small loans to the poor in almost every Latin American country.
Michael Schlein:
In 1992, in what was really an important event in our field, Accion created the world's first for-profit bank, focused on the poor, Bancosol, in Bolivia, which today is still one of the jewels in the world. And we saw the power of harnessing the capital markets. Again, today it's obvious, back then it was quite controversial, but all of a sudden we could access the debt markets, access the equity markets, hire talents in a different way. We were regulated, Bancosol was regulated in a different way. Later on, it could take deposits. Bancosol had been doing very well as nonprofit, but all of a sudden it took off. And so then, we went back to all of those nonprofits we had created and recreated them as for-profits. And really the modern microfinance industry took off in the early nineties, and actually in particular, really saw the power of harnessing the capital market. So more recently, it's the same thing, the same mission, but now we're really taking advantage of the FinTech revolution, which is finding new ways of meeting the financial needs of the poor.
Josh King:
You and I have sometimes met up at Money20/20 in Las Vegas, where FinTech not geared toward microfinance, but FinTech geared towards Silicon Valley and New York City is highly concentrated for a few days. How do you get their interest to focus on some of the other parts of the world that need as much expertise and innovation as is applied to the best markets in California and New York?
Michael Schlein:
I joke with some of the founders of Money20/20, that whatever panel I'm on, my message is always the same, mostly Money20/20 in Las Vegas is FinTech entrepreneurs focused on the U.S. markets. And they can have... It's a big, important market, but their impact is really, incremental, whereas if you could focus on the developing markets, you can really change the world, and also have a great social impact and a great financial return. I mean, the innovation that we're seeing, so we work all around the world, not only as a seed level investor, but also as an early in growth investor in FinTech for the poor, for people that have been left out.
Michael Schlein:
Data, data analytics, the blockchain, global satellite imagery, digital remittances, mobile phones, the machine-to-machine technology, the internet of things, all of these are transforming the way we provide financial services, especially to people who have been left out. Transactions that used to be seen as too small to be commercially viable, today there is no transaction that's too small to be commercially viable. Distances that were insurmountable, today no distance is insurmountable, and that's all quite recent. And therefore, again, our mission hasn't changed, but the tools we have at our disposal have changed radically. And it's a very, very exciting time.
Josh King:
You mentioned earlier, Mohammad Yunus, in 2007 Compartamos Banco, one of the MFIs that Accion heavily invested in, had a successful IPO that returned nearly half a billion dollars investments back to its early investors. This culminated a debate, Michael, between Mr. Yunus and Michael Chu at the 2008 World Microfinance Forum in Geneva. For the audience who may not be initiated in the world of microfinance, what was that debate all about?
Michael Schlein:
Compartamos in Mexico was really the first microfinance bank to have an IPO, and it was wildly successful. And you described some of the numbers and there was a debate around profiting from providing financial services to the poor. And basically, Mohamed Yunus doesn't believe that's appropriate. And Michael Chu and others believe that if you're not willing to tap the capital markets, you'll never reach billions of people. And if you think about it, if you only pursue these goals through philanthropy, all the philanthropy in the world is insufficient to the task of creating a financially inclusive world. You have to tap the capital markets to achieve our vision. And with that, you have to be comfortable paying a return on that investment. And as it turns out in our space, in particular, you can have a huge social impact as Compartamos has had, and also have a significant, very attractive rate of return to your investors.
Michael Schlein:
So that's the debate, but I think the debate has largely been settled, pretty much after that event in 1992. And Bancosol in Bolivia, are pretty much the entire microfinance industry has largely moved towards a for-profit model because they see the power of tapping the capital markets, certainly the FinTech companies. Now, there's a whole new language around it. I speak at business schools and business schools. It feels like a third of the graduating class want to be social entrepreneurs. That was a phrase that didn't exist a couple of years ago, but now people really want to change the world, but in a commercially viable way. If you think about it, that's what microfinance has always been. And now we're seeing these new FinTech startups and early stage companies that are doing just that. They're spectacularly innovative in finding new ways to help people that have been left out, but they're also smart, scalable, sustainable, and profitable businesses.
Josh King:
When you came to Accion, you were chosen out of, I think, about 150 candidates by the committee. And you were coming from the height of the capital markets. How did you prepare yourself to go from basically Park Avenue to Africa?
Michael Schlein:
You and I have known each other for decades, so you know that before I did a dozen years in Wall Street, I spent a dozen years in public service, mostly doing economic development, as you mentioned. So for me, this actually was the best of both worlds. My day job is, I get to try to make the world a better place, but day-to-day, we're investing and supporting companies, and it's very transactional. And it's, again, harnessing the capital market. So I think my first chapter in government, my second chapter in the private sector, set me up for the sort of the best of both worlds, where I get to do both, and it's again, it's a very exciting time in this space.
Josh King:
You established the first MFI in China. From there on where, what other places that you've opened up, are now operating in Accion?
Michael Schlein:
We have partners in almost every Latin American country, eight countries in Africa, India, China, the Philippines, most recently we're in Myanmar. Myanmar is a country that has 50 million people and basically has been left out of the world economy for the last several decades and needs everything. And so we've built an institution that's now one of the top microfinance institutions in Myanmar. When I first went there a few years ago, the country had 70% of the population lacked, had intermittent access to electricity, and yet they were bidding out the national wifi contract. And so you see that sort of disparity of they need everything, but the pace of development is happening so quickly. So it's very, very exciting. And of course, financial services is important to that.
Josh King:
And yet, not all of your interests are always focused outside of the United States. Let's hear how one of your domestic partners describes the work that Accion's U.S. Network is doing.
Jim Coke:
Let me tell you how good Accion is at what they do. The repayment rate on the loans is over 95%. That means that over 95% of the recipients use the money successfully to grow their business. That's pretty cool.
Josh King:
Michael, that was Jim Coke, founder of Boston Beer Company, NYSE, ticker symbol, Sam. For Sam Adams, half of the small businesses in the United States fail within four or five years of starting, how is Accion able to achieve such a high success rate?
Michael Schlein:
Yeah. The challenges in the U.S. are complicated and Boston Beer and Sam Adams have been big supporters, and you're right. The leadership there, believes in entrepreneurship. Our work in the U.S. is very much focused on small mom and pop stores that don't have access to banks. But also, the challenge here in the United States, half of working Americans live paycheck to paycheck. And so half of the country has trouble getting $4,000 in the case of emergency, and the banking system, again, we take a lot for granted here, but it doesn't really work for them. And so, our work here is very, very important. We generally will make zero to $50,000 loans that, again, are too small for the banking system to do efficiently, but we also have a bunch of FinTech innovative partners in the U.S.
Michael Schlein:
For example, Street Chairs is a great business that is affinity lending from veterans to veterans. Veterans like to lend to other veterans, and veterans are also more likely to repay a loan made from a veteran. And it's a lending platform that is targeting that area. In addition, there's another company that I love, called Lend Street, which is working with distress borrowers in the United States and using big data to assess who's, of people have already gotten into trouble, who are most likely to get out of trouble, and then helping them and giving them loans again at a time when the banking system wouldn't work for them, but helping them. And Lend Street has seen that over a period of like 12 to 18 months, they can improve someone's FICO score by over 100 points.
Josh King:
After the break, we talked about how Accion, under Michael Schlein, is now an investor in disruptive technology with the goal of changing the world's financial system.
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Josh King:
Back now, with Michael Schlein, president and CEO of Accion. Michael, as one of institutional investors, FinTech Finance 40, you've stated that you see FinTech as the pathway to an inclusive financial system of the future. But last year, you wrote that even in an increasingly digital world, MFIs still have some considerable advantages over FinTech?
Michael Schlein:
Microfinance sort of starts at the end of the spectrum that is, historically has been very labor intensive and very paper intensive. And we're actually working with a lot of microfinance institutions to help them digitize and take advantage of new tools. Then at the other end of the spectrum, you've got purely digital models that are very exciting and some of them are finding that in fact, you do need a little bit of touch with that tech. And what's happening is, it's different in different sectors, but it's coming together in certain ways. I think the more traditional labor intensive models are finding new ways of reaching greater scale through technology, and the digital models are finding places where collections, for example, are better done in person. So I think we're in experimental time right now. And I do think that over the next couple of years, some of this will sort out.
Michael Schlein:
It's also different in different sectors. So I'll give you an example. And one of my favorite companies is called Apollo, in rural Kenya, using global satellite images to assess the needs of small holder farmers. And the reason this is exciting to me is when you look at poverty around the world, two thirds of it is rural agricultural single family farms, one acre farms. And they're very, very hard to reach. This company is using the images from global satellite data to assess the needs of those small holder farmers, how much, based purely on that satellite imagery, they can assess what type of seed, how much seed, what type of fertilizer, how much fertilizer, and the farmer's ability to repay. And the reason that's important is, because so much of the world's poverty is tied to agriculture. If this is a early stage startup company, it could be challenged in many different ways, but if it succeeds, it could change the world.
Josh King:
One other graphic that you brought me was the Accion Venture Lab portfolio. I'm looking at these names in Africa, Lulalend, First Access, in Asia. Now, First Circle, Mirror Doctor, First Act, Credit Montine, the names go on and on, Michael. The Venture Lab provides funding and assistance to startups looking to broaden financial inclusion. What are you looking for when you test the landscape of companies which you want to include in the Lab?
Michael Schlein:
First and foremost, we are a double bottom line investor. We want to have a big social impact, but also a great financial return. So we're looking at, are they supporting our mission of helping to create a financial inclusive world? Beyond that, like other investors, we're looking at the right team, the right markets, and the right price for the investment and just all those factors to make sure that what we're trying to do with all of these companies is show that you can have a great social impact and a great financial return, because if you can show that, that is how the capital markets work.
Michael Schlein:
You're looking at the seed portfolio. We also have an early in growth stage portfolio. And two years ago now we created Accion Frontier Inclusion Fund, which is the world's first global FinTech fund for the underserved. We've raised $140 million from some really great blue chip investors. And again, what we're trying to show with that fund is you can have a big impact and you can have a great financial return. We showed that in microfinance and when by showing in a microfinance, the capital markets did respond and billions of dollars have been invested there. We're trying to show the same thing now with FinTech, with this pioneering fund. And it is working very well. We're actually 80% deployed and beginning to consider a second fund.
Josh King:
Early on in your time at Accion, you were mentioning how you wanted to evolve and expand into the area of insurance. I was in insurance at the time, and I wasn't exactly sure where you were going to go with that because, what kind of insurance does a micro farmer really need? But let's talk about the example of Pula. How are they disrupting the insurance field? And what's the potential impact for a company like Pula to help in global poverty?
Michael Schlein:
So, I mentioned Apollo, which is using global satellite images to make loans to small farmers. Pula is using similar technology, global satellite image data from satellites to provide insurance to small holder farmers. And they're also quite in innovative in that they work with big distributors of seed and fertilizer and insure each bag. So when a farmer buys the bag, they actually read a QR code and they get insurance on those seeds and then Pula can track how that's performing. And they can see from, again, satellite images, if there's a drought, if there's a flood, and they can pay out insurance. And so they're reducing the cost of providing insurance significantly. They don't have to send out people to see and assess the farm. They can actually do it from the sky. Another one on insurance that's very exciting is, invested in a company called All Life, which is the world's first company to provide insurance to people diagnosed with HIV and Aids.
Michael Schlein:
And it is, in the past in the insurance industry, or most of the insurance industry today, you get a policy and you have no contact with the company until you have a problem. This company, in the world of HIV and Aids, if you stay on your meds of the right cocktail of antiretroviral medications, you become insurable. You can live for decades, as long as you stay on your meds. And so this company is using digital technology to know that their clients are staying on their meds every single day. And what's exciting about it, is it's a different model for insurance, its daily contact with your clients. And some of the big international insurance companies are now taking notice saying, wow, this small startup, and now it's reached a significant scale is finding a better way of interacting with clients. And again, it's digital technologies allowing us to do things we couldn't do before.
Josh King:
How big is the staff at Accion?
Michael Schlein:
So we have a staff about 140 direct staff, but mostly we have an incredible network of partners all around the world. So we have significant investors and partners all around the world that have much larger staff.
Josh King:
I mean, I'm just looking at these materials that you brought me, and there's so many projects that you've mentioned, such exciting opportunities in the areas of innovation, but a lot to keep your arms around, to measure success, to enforce accountability. How do you sort of track the progress of your portfolio and keep people accountable for the opportunities that they've got through Accion?
Michael Schlein:
I do think for a relatively small organization, we punch way above our weight, and we do have a significant global footprint. Every single one of those companies, obviously, as an investor, we certainly track all the financial metrics, but every single one of them has a social impact thesis that we track specifically. The challenge is it's hard to add all that up. It's different for different things. Like, Azamo is a digital remittance company, and its mission, one of its goals is to cut the cost of remittances by 80%. And it's doing that. It's a purely digital model. So compared to some of the incumbents, it is 80% cheaper than the remittance companies that have built branches in remote locations. So we track how they're doing, and then sure enough, they've had a significant impact in reducing the prices of global remittances.
Michael Schlein:
Every one of... We work with companies that are doing data and data analytics, and we track the impact of that as well. The problem with that, in the old world of microfinance, you could add everything up. In the new world of FinTech, it's a little bit harder, because there are a lot of different models going on. This is a, I've said before, I think we're living in the golden age of FinTech. Right now, it's very, very experimental, it's very exciting. We're a nonprofit, we're willing to invest earlier than others are. And we do a lot of work to not only invest, but also support these companies. Some of them are going to fail, but some of them I truly believe are going to change the world. And I think a few years from now, maybe some of that we'll have sorted out, but right now we're in the experimental phase of that.
Josh King:
Experimental phase and also a phase, Michael, where global politics, local governments are constantly in flux. You mentioned opening China, you talked about your trips into Myanmar. It's one thing for a company like Accion and your partners to be deeply engaged in the opportunities and the people in these countries, but what's the role of governments, and how have you engaged with them, and where are the pitfalls, as well?
Michael Schlein:
Another part of our work, is we created the Center for Financial Inclusion, which is an industry-wide think tank that among other things has created the smart campaign, which is the world's first global consumer protection campaign for financial services all around the world, which has now become the standard. We also do a lot through the Center for Financial Inclusion. We do a lot of work with governments on policies, on how they can strengthen their regulation of financial inclusion. We partner with the Economist Intelligence Unit, to annually rank 65 countries on how they're doing to promote financial inclusion, and we name and shame. And we sort of say who's... We say who's doing this well and who's not doing this well. And I've seen financial inclusion regulators cry when they moved up in these rankings, literally. And I've seen them yell and scream when they've moved down in these rankings.
Michael Schlein:
So these rankings are pretty powerful. The role of government here is enormously important, whether it's social welfare payments that can be changed from cash to digital, whether it's building the infrastructure and certainly the regulations to create digital payments. All of that is sort of the rails of financial inclusion. A lot of the companies we're investing in today are going to ride those rails.
Michael Schlein:
I'll give you one example, India, in the last several years under the Modi government, has transformed financial inclusion, literally 1.3 billion people in India in the last several years now have a universal biometric ID. Before that, you couldn't even... Now, every single Indian citizen has an ID. And that is very, very important. They've also opened hundreds of millions of accounts. They've created a centralized credit bureau, a digital locker that allows you to individuals to track their digital identities and their own information online. And we've seen enormous progress in India's expansion and financial inclusion, including they tried something bold. The Modi government tried to demonetize the Indian economy. It would be like in the United States, if we all of a sudden took all the 20, 10 and $5 bills, and they really pushed people to start transacting digitally. Again, long way to go. Everything was very complicated, India is a very big, big country. But we've seen that if a country makes this a priority, they can really move the needle.
Josh King:
We're in the golden age of FinTech, as you said. You've intrigued me, you've made a compelling investment pitch. I'm listening to you, Michael Schlein. How do I get involved with Accion, and look at some of these opportunities as an investor?
Michael Schlein:
Again, we've created the world's first global FinTech fund for the underserved, and it does have institutions and individuals as investors. And interesting, the seed portfolio has been all on our balance sheet, but in recently, we're exploring ways in which people will be able to participate in that as well. Because there's a lot of interest in seeing. We see innovations all around the world and there's a lot of people that are very, very interested in seeing this portfolio. You're looking at the investments we've made. We've looked at thousands of companies around the world, and I do think that positions us well to see trends, and see what's working, and see what's not working. So there's many ways of getting involved and supporting our work.
Josh King:
What's the first step I would take to find out more about the Frontier Inclusion Fund?
Michael Schlein:
Check out our website, www.accion.org, A-C-C-I-O-N.org, all the material is up there.
Josh King:
Thanks for joining us on the ICE House, Mike.
Michael Schlein:
My pleasure.
Josh King:
That's our conversation for this week. Our guest was Michael Schlein, president and CEO of Accion. If you like what you heard, please rate us on iTunes, write a review, so that other folks know where to find us. If you've got a comment or question you'd like one of our expert to tackle in a future show, email us at ICE House, at theice.com or tweet at us, at NYSE. Our show is produced by Pete Ash and Ian Wolf, with production assistance from Ken Abel and Steven Portner. I'm Josh King, your host, signing off from the library of the New York Stock Exchange. Thanks for listening, talk to you next week.
Speaker 1:
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