Speaker 1:
From the Library of the New York Stock Exchange at the corner of Wall and Broad Streets in New York city, you're inside the ICE House. Our podcast from Intercontinental Exchange on markets, leadership and vision in global business; the dream drivers that have made the NYSC and indispensable institution of global growth for over 225 years. Each week, we feature stories of those who hatch plans, create jobs and harness the engine of capitalism. Right here, right now at the NYSC and at ICE exchanges and clearing houses around the world. And now welcome inside the ICE house, here's your host, Josh King of Intercontinental Exchange.
Josh King:
It was what seemed like another ordinary spring day in Michigan, when a simple phone call would change Mat Ishbia's life. While playing video games, Mat's friend, former AAU teammate Antonio Gates. Yes, the eight-time pro baller, Antonio Gates, got a call from a Michigan state assistant basketball coach about a scrimmage later that evening. Gates, who was an incoming recruit of Spartan's coach Tom Izzo at the time, asked if he could bring along his friend. And the answer was, "Yeah, sure."
Josh King:
In the final minutes of the scrimmage, while going up against all-American Mateen Cleaves, Ishbia was determined to make an impression. And in scoring nine quick points, he did just that. His performance earned him invitations to future scrimmages, where he built upon his excellent first outing by showcasing his grit, determination, positivity, and enthusiasm for the game. And after a summer of hard work, assistant coach Stan Heath offered Ishbia a coveted spot on the team as one of its rare walk-ons.
Josh King:
In history, we'll note that among those, with those spots on that Spartan team, Michigan state would go on to win the 2000 NCAA division one men's basketball championship with an 89, 76 victory over the number five Florida Gators at the RCA Dome in Indianapolis. Drawing inspiration from his time playing and coaching with Coach Izzo, Mat now uses his relentless drive towards success to change the trajectory of mortgage lending, in the area that we are increasingly focused on here at Intercontinental Exchange, given our $11 billion acquisition of Ellie Mae, now ICE Mortgage Technology last September.
Josh King:
As president and CEO of Michigan-based United Wholesale Mortgage, that's NYSC ticker symbol, UWMC, Mat's passion gives UWM an edge in the complex mortgage industry. His leadership style and dedication to a team-focused business approach has enabled him to gain record breaking wholesale market share and rapidly grow his business into a leading lending operation.
Josh King:
And it was just a couple of days ago that UWM went public here on the New York Stock Exchange through a merger with a special purpose acquisition company, or SPAC, with evaluation of nearly $16 billion, making it the largest listing via a SPAC so far. And this is a quote from Mat. He said, "While UWM has already firmly established as the number one wholesale mortgage lender with a huge leg up on technology and a strong operational efficiency, we will never relax." Mat was quoted saying, just as if he was walking off a practice at the Breslin Student Event Center on the Michigan State Campus in Lansing. Well, we are glad that Mat never relaxes because our conversation on how United Wholesale Mortgage is transforming the mortgage industry is coming up right after this.
Speaker 3:
We started with a vision to transform energy markets, using technology to boost transparency and level the playing field. That vision and customer-focus continues to drive how we look at opportunities and challenges in our industry. Today, we connect participants around the world so they can trade, hedge, invest and raise capital.
Speaker 3:
We establish prices across asset classes and create opportunity to solve complex global problems. We provide pricing that markets rely on. Transform the way business is done. Help companies grow to fuel innovation and provide data to advance economies and society, while we invest in our communities.
Speaker 3:
20 years ago, we saw an opportunity to create a market driven by customer needs. Today, our markets create endless opportunity for participants around the world and our team is focused more than ever before to ensure the markets continue to function properly. On behalf of my colleagues around the globe, thank you from Intercontinental Exchange.
Josh King:
Our guest today, Mat Ishbia, is the president and CEO of United Wholesale Mortgage, that's NYSC ticker symbol, UWMC, the number one wholesale mortgage lender in the nation for five years running. Under Mat's leadership, UWM has soared to new heights, becoming one of the most innovative leaders in the industry with his focus on supporting independent mortgage brokers across the country and growing the wholesale channel. Mat has now taken UWM from a 12 person company to nearly 7,000 person team working together on one campus in Pontiac, Michigan.
Josh King:
Welcome Mat inside the ICE House.
Mat Ishbia:
Yeah, no, thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
Josh King:
So, Mat, on Friday you rang the NYSC opening bell alongside your dad, Jeff to commemorate United Wholesale Mortgages' first day of trading on the NYSC under that ticker symbol, UWMC, and the closing of the previously announced combination with Gores Holding IV. What were you feeling as you stepped out on that iconic bell podium that morning?
Mat Ishbia:
Yeah, it was really a surreal feeling, being able to be out there, and obviously great to have my father there with me, along with a couple of my other executive leaders at the company. And so, it was just really a cool feeling to see and look out over there and see UWM everywhere, and really a proud moment. And at the same time, I look at it as an exciting moment, really a launching off point. We went from 12 people to 8,000 plus people right now and we're about to take it to the next level. And this is really the opportunity to hopefully catapult our business. So, was kind of excited and surreal moment, at the same time thinking, can't wait to see what comes next.
Josh King:
Mat, in the last 10 months or so this podium that used to see IPOs every day with large groups on that podium has been a little quieter. We've had to do a lot of virtual bells, but you were not going to be deterred. You wanted to make that trip to New York, like a trip to Madison Square Garden.
Mat Ishbia:
Yeah, absolutely. It's a once in a lifetime type of event. Wouldn't have missed it for anything, so glad we could do it. The New York Stock Exchange did a great job making it happen. And obviously, I was proud to be there with my team.
Josh King:
I saw you put out a video last November, December about the thought of about going public, and then it all sort of transpired on Friday. How did the day unfold for you? What happened? How did you think about it when trading closed?
Mat Ishbia:
Yeah, it was kind of a wild day from a perspective; got to be there early with our team. We got a chance to see our name on the iconic building, and have an opportunity to be throughout the operation and see everything. And just something that you never really expect or never plan on doing. So, that was really great. It was kind of a whirlwind-type day, but I was there with all my leaders, my team was there. So, we really had a great time together and celebrated. Like I said, a culmination of a lot of work, I've been there 18 years. I've been at UWM for 18 years now to get to where we're at. And at the same time, a launching off point to where we're going to go.
Josh King:
So, you say you've been at UWM for 18 years. So, it was just over 20 years ago, Mat, that you enjoyed that very different landmark achievement at the RCA Dome that I mentioned in the introduction, winning the NCAA men's basketball championship as a point guard for the Spartans. How did ringing the bell at the NYC compare to that day? 18 years of work versus four years of work from the time that you walk onto Coach Izzo's team?
Mat Ishbia:
Yeah, they're both very similar in a lot of respects. Winning a Michigan State basketball champion, I was at the end of the bench. I wasn't a great player, but I was part of the team and I had to play my role and I had to be the best third-string point guard I could be. That was my role on that team; one of 14 guys.
Mat Ishbia:
And so that was a great experience and such a culmination because the notoriety and the opportunity at such a young age, and then at UWM was kind of like being able to achieve that after 18 years going towards where we're at, same type of thing in a lot of respects. So, they both were different. One was obviously in the athletics, one was in the business world. One was a goal you always had, NCAA championship. Going public was not something I had originally thought of. I just never thought that was even realistic. So, it's kind of different in that respect. But man, both were pretty fantastic days.
Josh King:
So, about going public, Mat. Reading the stats of UWM, one has to wonder looking back toward the end of last year, you didn't need to go public. I'm curious, what was the rationale of you, the management team, the board, the investors to say, now is the time to make this move?
Mat Ishbia:
Yeah. We've been growing for so long and I feel like we've kind of hit where we can go as a private company. We've never had outside capital in the business. We've always been focused on growing organically, we're not acquiring companies. And so we said, "Gosh, what are the things that we need to do to put ourselves in position to take it to the next level?" We compete in a very competitive market in the mortgage world, housing industry, and we're number two overall mortgage company in America. And the number one, three, four, five are nationally known companies, large banks, all public companies. And so we said, "Gosh, let's level the playing field here a little bit. How do we get to the same level of that? And then we can really put fuel to fire."
Mat Ishbia:
And so now, with this extra cash we have and some different things we've gotten put in place, we can spread the word about mortgage brokers being the best way to [inaudible 00:10:10] a mortgage, findamortgagebroker.com, educate consumers. And then on top of that, we can double down on technology. That's what got us here. We innovated, we've been different on technology. We're going to double down on technology. So, those combinations. And so, it made sense to do that and really put us on a platform and a level playing field with our biggest competitors.
Josh King:
You were reportedly, Mat, weren't really familiar with what a SPAC was. I think just at the beginning of the pandemic, looking back nine months or so ago, on Friday, it was this $16.1 billion valuation via the SPAC deal. So remarkable. Walk us through the process of examining the different ways to take UWM public, including reading up on how SPACS actually work. I mean, you could have gone the traditional route. You could have merged. You could have done a bunch of different things. It became what so many companies are seeing right now in the SPAC, take us back to the beginning of your thinking.
Mat Ishbia:
Yeah, no. So, definitely, I didn't know what a SPAC was. So, I'm fine saying I didn't know what it was. I'm a mortgage guy. A mortgage guy and I know a little bit of basketball and I'm with my kids, those are three things [crosstalk 00:11:14].
Mat Ishbia:
So, a SPAC versus IPO. I always knew what an IPO was. And so, when I learned of it first, it was back in basically I think April and May of last year. And I got a chance to meet Alec Gores and Mark Stone from their team. And these guys were top-of-the-line type guys, class acts, and basically walked me through what it was going to be like going public. Whether I do IPO or SPAC, we had to figure out what was the best route.
Mat Ishbia:
And these guys are experts on the SPAC obviously. I think Alec Gores is one of the guys that's done the most of them and really has an amazing track record, and ever since I met him, I built a great relation with him and realized that this is the best way to do it. If you're going to go public, in my opinion, the most efficient and straightforward way is through the SPAC because of having someone to guide you through it. Of course you have investment bankers, but these guys are on the same team as you, the Gores team. And so, it was really a great experience from my perspective.
Mat Ishbia:
A lot of times people think SPACs are a lot more speculative companies. We're the opposite. We had a very solid business. We made over 1,000,000,004 in the third quarter last year. And so, we're making a lot of money here and it was like, gosh, we aren't sitting here saying, "How do I spend the next 12 months building out this going public and hire people to help me figure out." I said, "Listen, we got to do this, but I still got to run the business all day every day." And that's what I did. I had to run the business. I had great people guiding us through it, but we still got to run the business. We got 8,000 people here. We got to run a company having our record year. It wasn't to take our eye off the ball of running the business.
Mat Ishbia:
And so, there's a multitude of other reasons, but that was really the main thing. And the SPAC process worked great, and I'm a big fan of it.
Josh King:
If you didn't know really what SPACs were at the time, you didn't know who Gores was. What was that first conversation like? Did he sort of cold call you, ask for a meeting? And is that the philosophy you have as both a CEO and a player and a coach like, go play in traffic, take the meetings, see what people have to say.
Mat Ishbia:
Yeah. He got connected into one of my people that worked in my company here through, [inaudible 00:13:07], mutual connections. And so, that's kind of how it came up to me. But there's nothing you can call me on that I don't take 5, 10, 15 minutes to look into, there's always a way to think about it. Literally, I told a guy at my office who came and said, I said, "SPAC, I don't know what a SPAC is, get out of here. I don't have time for this right now." Kind of joking. And he said, "Yeah, give me 10 minutes, later on this week, I'll talk to you about it." And that's what we did. And then we got on a call with Alec and Mark, I believe. I don't remember who I spoke with next, but that's what kind of got the ball rolling in that process.
Josh King:
So now you are public, you have the infusion, UWM has been the number one wholesale lender in the country for six consecutive years now, Mat, and with 20% market share and growing. So, where's the ceiling? What's your plan to grow market share from here?
Mat Ishbia:
So, we actually have about 35% market share in the wholesale channel. The brokers have 20%. So, the wholesale channel's only 20% of the overall market, mortgage. And we're 35% of the 20% if that makes sense. And so, two ways this is going to go. One is we're going to grow our market share within the broker channel. And two, we're going to really help the broker channel grow because we believe, out of every 100 mortgage, and only 20 of them, we have a chance to get business with at UWM. And also, only 20 of those loans actually go to a mortgage broker, and that's the best way for consumers to get a loan. So what we're going to do is we're going to continue to educate consumers, help drive the mortgage brokers market share up, and it doesn't have to come to UWM. The loans don't have to come to UWM, they can go to any of the top lenders.
Mat Ishbia:
But the key is the fastest, easiest, cheapest way for someone to get a mortgage is through a mortgage broker. So, we're going to educate consumers on that process. And so, that's one of the big things we're going to do. And then in our channel, how do we get more? How do we get more than 35% share? Sounds like a lot, but hey, we can get to 50%, absolutely. We have a lot of plays in place. We have a massive amount of loyalty from the brokers, because they know that we're on their team. We're not competing with them. We're actually helping them grow. We're helping educate consumers to go to them, not to come to us.
Mat Ishbia:
I could go out there and use my platform to say, "Call UWM, call UWM." Like a lot of my competitors do, but we say, "Go to the brokers, work with them," and then, hey, we'll get our fair share of that.
Josh King:
Well, that's probably a good jumping off point to do a quick sidebar, Mat. For our listeners who are used to different ways in which they go and get their own either residential or commercial mortgage, what exactly is a wholesale lender and what makes you different from others in the industry?
Mat Ishbia:
Well, it's really simple. Think wholesale versus retail. Wholesale is always you think cheaper pricing, it's going to be cheaper. So, you don't have to pay retail, you get to pay wholesale. And the one way you can get to a lender like us is by going through a local mortgage broker. And even after going through that broker, it's substantially lower rates and fees than going directly to a retail lender. So, that brokers have very low cost, and we do it very low cost. And therefore it used to be, okay it's cheaper, but it wasn't as easy or as fast. Well, we built the technology at UWM to give these mortgage brokers the ability to do it faster, easier, and cheaper. And that's why it's growing so much right now as a broker channel because you can't compete with it.
Mat Ishbia:
If you talk to a mortgage broker at findamortgagebroker.com, that's a better way to get a mortgage. It's going to be cheaper for you and your family and simpler because nobody wants a mortgage. We're in an interesting industry, no one wants our product. They want the house or they want to save 120 bucks. No one wants a mortgage. So, make it painless, make it simple and easy. And that's what we've been able to do with the mortgage brokers, with our technology. And they obviously are going to have the lower rates because they're getting wholesale pricing.
Josh King:
So, instead of offering mortgages directly to consumers, you work exclusively with these independent mortgage brokers across the country to help them provide a client experience that's far superior to that of any other bank or retail mortgage lender. Tell us, what are the keys for providing an excellent client experience?
Mat Ishbia:
Well, it's technology and it's dominating a service. So, think about it like you have to exceed everyone's expectations. So, how do you let a broker in New Mexico or California or South Dakota, how do I make sure that they exceed your expectations? I got to do it with technology and I got to exceed their expectations. So what that means is we are overstaffed by design. We've built our business to make sure that we can serve clients, close loans faster. And at the same time, we've used technology to drive efficiencies so that therefore our team members that we used to have a lot of team members, we still have a lot of team members, obviously 8,000 plus, but now they do more loans per person than any other mortgage company in America. And so, what we've done is we've used technology to, we call it human-enabled technology than enable our team members to be more successful, which then enables the brokers.
Mat Ishbia:
So, it's using technology. It really ties into technology and what you can do. And we have over a thousand technology team members that have built this stuff from scratch, proprietary stuff to make it so it's so simple and easy. And so, if the brokers are empowered, if you put the broker on a level playing field to compete for a mortgage, you know what's going to happen? They got a lower rate, and if they can do it faster and easier, that borrower's going to tell all their friends to go to that mortgage broker, and that's what we've done. We've helped these brokers grow their business through that process.
Josh King:
So to go from 12 people at the very beginning of UWM to 8,000 people now. With all this focus on the client experience must mean recruiting and retaining a great team is like the ultimate coach's challenge here. What do you look for when you're hiring? Number one, and then how have you kept them all cohered during these last 10 crazy months?
Mat Ishbia:
So, first off, it's simple what we look for. We look for a work ethic and attitude. I'm looking for positive attitude, great work ethic. I don't care about their background. I don't care if they graduated from college or high school or they have mortgage background or not. If you have the right work ethic and attitude, I'll find you a role here. Mortgages aren't that complicated. I can teach it to you in a couple months. I can't teach heart. And so we're looking for great people with great work ethics and attitude.
Mat Ishbia:
Secondly is, getting great people to join is hard. You're competing for talent. We have about 300 people that apply to work at our company every day. That's 6,000 in a 20 business day month, they apply to work here, and 65 plus percent of those are referred by our team members here.
Mat Ishbia:
So, it's a great way. We bring in so many great people and then they're like, "Wow, you take great care of us, you treat us well. You give us opportunity to grow. I'm going to tell my cousin about you, my brother." And that's how we've grown our business. And so it's been a fantastic process as we continue to grow literally 6,000 applications a month. We hired, in the month of January, we're going to hire about 800 people.
Mat Ishbia:
And so, if 800 people start at our company this month, which is a pretty good month. At the same time, it's only about 10% of the people that apply. And so, it's a big opportunity for us to keep getting great people to join our family and our team now. And so, that's a big part of it.
Mat Ishbia:
And the last 10 months has been wild. Nothing like it, you don't have a COVID-19 plan. I didn't have it written up, I didn't read about it in their book. And so we had to navigate through it. Part of our culture is everyone's here in one building together. We work together. We're running huddles, a lot of sports background, running huddles and we're game planning and we're doing things and we're collaborating and it's obviously been a lot different doing it virtually, and so we had to adapt. And I told my team as we adapt, and now we're doing different games and different things virtually, as soon as we adapt and it all is working great, adapting, which has been pretty darn good. As soon as we got it perfect, everyone's back in the office because things are going to get back to normal.
Mat Ishbia:
So, we're waiting for people to come back. We're excited, but we're going to make sure everyone's safe. Take care of our team members first, make sure it's safe, healthy. Everyone's good? We bring everyone back and we're going to dominate going forward with that. So, that's kind of how we've been working it.
Josh King:
You get 8,000 people to lead now. So, what are the leadership lessons you get from Izzo and other great leaders through your lifetime and how do you apply them? Not to just leading a bunch of people who can fit on one long bench, but people who can actually fill that stadium.
Mat Ishbia:
So, it's not so much different. What it ties to is you have to lead. And as a leader, everything starts with the leadership, and it's not just one person leading here. Now I have to have a team of leaders and so we have to be all aligned. So, we set a set of standards from our core values at our company to also, how we call it, how we do it, our leadership traits and what we expect out of all of our leaders. And we define that very clearly what we expect out of our leaders. And it goes all the way through our organization. Right now we have about 675 to 680, what we call, captains, which is our leaders; leaders on the floor. They all lead team members. So, if I'm the best leader in the country and so is Jenny and so is Steve, but Bill's doing a bad job. That team doesn't feel engaged. So, we have to make sure all leaders are great.
Mat Ishbia:
Actually, one of my leadership coaches is Mateen Cleaves, who's the national player of the year at Michigan State, helped me win the national champion because he understands how we do things, Michigan State basketball, how we coach people, how we get the most out of people, and he's coaching our leaders on how to coach their teams. And so we have a very... You have to define it. You can't say, "Hey, everyone, lead them this way." You have to actually define what our leadership style is and what we expect out of people, and then hold them accountable to it. Just like you do with your team members.
Mat Ishbia:
And so, we've done that, done it pretty successfully and of course, we're always evolving and getting better.
Josh King:
After the break, Mat Ishbia, CEO of United Wholesale Mortgage, and I will dive into what's behind UWM substantial growth. That's all right after this.
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Josh King:
Welcome back. Before the break, Mat Ishbia, CEO of the United Wholesale Mortgage, and I were discussing UWM's listing day and how the company is streamlining the mortgage process. Mat, the mortgage process can take quite a long time. I was on these calls with ICE chairman and CEO, Jeff Sprecher, talking about months from origination to closing of a mortgage. The industry average from start to finish; 45 to 60 days. Your process can take an average of just 17 days. What are the keys to streamlining this process?
Mat Ishbia:
Well, it's a great point. It's a big differentiator. The key is technology and execution. So, we have built an amazing technology platform to make the process fast, easy, but what can we do that technology can do that we don't need humans to do? And at the same time, how do I enable my humans, my team members, to be great with the technology, be more efficient? And so, it's combination of those two things, which makes it so we're now 16, 17 days to close, when everyone else is taking 45, 50, 60 days.
Mat Ishbia:
And that differential gets passed on to the consumer, that speed. So, it costs less money to lock a loan for a short amount of time. So, they get that money. It gives the brokers, look good to the consumers, they get more referrals, they grow their business. You close a purchase on time with a realtor, realtor refers you more clients because they got paid on time. Speed is so key. Time kills deals, speed wins.
Mat Ishbia:
Speed solves everything, is the thing we say here. If you can do things fast and efficiently, you're going to win. And so, that's been a big part of it. And as you know, the mortgage industry, it's not that way other places. And so, we have a major competitive advantage and we're going to continue to add to it. So, you got to focus on the technology and then you got to make sure you have processes. A lot of people think, oh, well Mat speaks fast, he's a younger guy. I actually am not in sales. I'm an operations guy. That's actually my background. And so, operations, processes, everything is like a machine through our business and we make sure we use technology to connect all those dots.
Josh King:
Mat, we're talking about operations and we're talking about technology. We've talked about technology a lot just in this short conversation already. Take us under the hood of this technology. So much of the exceptional service that you provide is a result of this proprietary technology, conceived, design and built by your own team of in-house developers. Walk us through some of this technology and how it sets you apart from your competitors.
Mat Ishbia:
Yeah. Well, there's so many different pieces. So, you think about it. What we have to do is we have to set up the technology to make it so the process is simple for a consumer. So, you think about the consumer first, how do I make it so the consumer doesn't have to fill out 88 forms to get the docs done. Okay, well everything's, of course, e-signed. But also, we have a digital mortgage app where they can upload their documents via a secure portal while also filling in things and correcting things that the loan officer or originator might not have gotten right. It's all a collaborative process updated at the same time.
Mat Ishbia:
And then on top of that, we don't make the consumer go chase down their old tax returns and their old... We have the ability, they click the [inaudible 00:26:07] buttons and we can go out to your bank and pull down your assets. We can go out into the IRS and pull out their tax returns. We have the ability of going there using our technology. So, once again, the borrower can do the e-sign and do everything and say, "Gosh, is that all I got to do? What else I got to do?" "No, you're all set. We got the rest of it, taking care of you. We'll call back with questions." And occasionally, we come back with a couple things we need, and a lot of times we don't need anything else. We've got out all the information for you.
Mat Ishbia:
So, we built this technology and obviously we've connected it, whether it's with vendors, but most of this stuff is done internally, completely. Although, we have to hit the IRS websites or banks and all those things, but we do it all internally and really made it so it's a seamless process. And then we can expand on it because when you're doing 60, 70,000 mortgages in a month, there's a lot of things going on. You got to make sure you do it very accurately and very correct and execute it across the board. And the way you do that best is with technology and letting these humans, our team members, check for it and make sure. Checking things, but not going out and calling the IRS or faxing documents, we're not using fax documents anymore. It's all electronic, and we're doing things with technology.
Josh King:
UWM made headlines last year by saying it would pay a total of 25 million in bonuses cumulatively to the team members for reaching your company's three-year goals, which were set in 2017. And on top of that, Mat, a minimum of $1,000 in company stock for all employees and 10 free two-year leases on either an Escalade, XT4 or XT5 or a Chevy Corvette. You know where I'm going with this. How important is it to reward UWM employees for their efforts during a challenging year, during the coronavirus and the economic uncertainty that's here. Everyone's got to play their role in the team.
Mat Ishbia:
Yeah, absolutely. So, when we win as a team, we all win as a team. I was at Michigan State, I was the 14th player on the bench, 14th player on the team. I won a ring. I had my role to play and we all all win and celebrate together. Same thing here at UWM. Just because I'm the CEO, doesn't mean... Every person has to play their role in order for us to get to where we're at. It's not a one team show. It's not a thousand person show. It's an 8,000 person show. And so, when we win, we celebrate together. Now that we have shareholders too, they're part of it too. That's why we're paying a dividends saying, "Listen guys, if we're making a lot of money, we're going to make sure everyone's getting paid. Everyone's part of the team because we're going to win together as a team, as a family."
Mat Ishbia:
And so, that's a very big part of our success. Doing all the things for our team members and that's one of the things that's help get us to where we're at because they all feel part of it. You can't pay someone to care about your business. You got to care about them and show them you care about them for them to care about the business. And so, they'll care about you and the business. And that's what our team members do. Our team members care about our clients and care about wowing a client to make sure that everyone has success on their mortgage process because they know it matters, and therefore it helps our broker get more business, then we get more business.
Mat Ishbia:
And so, you take care of people around you. It's not all about me, me, me, me, me. You got to help other people, help them be successful, and we're going to always do that. And now we have shareholders to take care of as well.
Josh King:
One of the biggest industry trends in 2020 was brought on by the pandemic, as many Americans either relocated or added to their holdings or traded up for larger spaces that they needed because they were actually using their home as an office. Is this consistent with what you're seeing throughout the year, looking at the data through your pipes and also, will it continue?
Mat Ishbia:
So what happens is people now want to not live in an apartment, they might want to buy a home. They might want to have a yard. They might want to have a little bigger home because they might need to have an office in their home. And so, we've seen that transition over the last six to 12 months and we we're going to see it continue.
Mat Ishbia:
Now, how extreme will it get? We're not sure, but we definitely know home means more than ever before. And that people are looking for great places to live and they know they might be in the house a little longer than expected. So, you got to make it a great place. And so, people are looking at that. People are upgrading homes and when they upgrade, [inaudible 00:29:57] a new opportunity for the Millennials to be able to come in as first-time home buyers. And so, there's a lot of positive in the housing industry right now. And especially with interest rates as low as they are, you can afford a house, maybe a lot cheaper than you thought you could just 12 months ago or 18 months ago.
Josh King:
Last month, Mat, the latest ICE mortgage technology Millennial tracker, which covers loan originations for people born in the 1980 or later, recorded that September refinances had climbed to 43% of all closed loans for Millennials. Do you think the pandemic has changed the prospect of home ownership for this generation?
Mat Ishbia:
Yeah. I think it accelerated it a little bit. I'm a believer that the Millennial generation is buying homes and was going through the process of buying homes, but you know what? Maybe this accelerated it a little bit, because you're cooped up an apartment or you got to go back and live with your parents because you're not a place you want to be. It's changed it a little bit. And so, we see that moving and I think it kind of just jump started it a little bit, because we've seen a lot of purchase. We do a lot of purchase business here at UWM compared to a lot of my competitors do almost exclusively refinance and we're a much more balanced approach, and we're going to continue that going forward.
Mat Ishbia:
And we think that the home buying season's coming up in the spring, it usually comes in the spring and the summer. It really went all the way through, even in the winter this year, and it's continuing very strong. So, it's an exciting time in the mortgage business.
Josh King:
So Mat, you went public last Friday. You look across UWM, 8,000 people, 17 years ago you're looking at 12 people around a table. Just take me back there as we close. And did you envision where this would go and I guess over the arc of that 17 year journey, what was the toughest spot you were in?
Mat Ishbia:
Yeah, so definitely didn't envision this. Had no concept. We only 12 people, I was taking faxes off the fax machine, learning the business from the ground up trying to figure it out what was going on. Definitely didn't have this vision. And the way I look at it is, every day, if you have the mentality of getting better every day. So, today where we are, we're going to be better tomorrow. And you do that every day, year in, year out. Eventually, you keep climbing, keep climbing, and so never settling or relaxing and saying, "Oh, I got here, I'm successful." We're always driving for more, always pushing for more. And so that's a big part of it, of how we got here, because it wasn't like some plan; okay, one day we're going to go public. We're going to have 8,000 people. We're going to be the largest wholesale under the country, 60.
Mat Ishbia:
I mean, we're doing more volume now than any wholesale lender in the history's ever done. And it's by a wide margin, almost double the largest year of all time by anyone else. And so, we've grown substantially and it's not based on some strategy or vision. It was based off getting better every day, having people that care and working hard to continue to grow the business. And so that's big part of it. And so, that's how we got here and then we're going to continue. We're going public, I'm cashing out, I'm putting fuel on the fire. I'm here. I'm the largest shareholder, I plan on continuing to grow for years and years to come and helping this company grow. And not only be the number two overall lender, but eventually be the number one overall lender. And that's the path we're on.
Josh King:
It was not lost in the folks here at the exchange that your dad was by your side as you rang the bell last Friday. He opened up his company in 1986. Curious, your thoughts about having your dad next to you and the impact that he's had on you throughout your life.
Mat Ishbia:
Yeah. So, he's had a huge impact on me. So, my father's a lawyer and a serial entrepreneur. Started the business back in 1986, obviously a small company, he's never actually worked in the mortgage business, but that doesn't mean he hasn't had a big impact on me and our company because the way he taught me how to treat people the right way, the integrity of the, do what's right. We always do the right type of loans. If you look at the top 25 mortgage lenders in the country, the best credit score borrowers, the best quality of loans is at you UWM because my father always said, "We're not doing loans to make a commission. We're going to do right by people. If people don't qualify or doesn't fit the criteria, let someone else do those. Let's not do the wrong thing." We always do what's right.
Mat Ishbia:
And so, those type of principles are what my father raised me on. And I still talk to him almost every day. He calls me on his drive into his office and checks in with me, see how things are going. We have a great relationship. So, having him next to me was really a special moment to be able to share with him. Once again, a dream that neither of us ever had or thought was possible and we accomplished it and be there next to each other was a great time.
Josh King:
35 years of exponential growth. You're continuing to expand your operations at an unprecedented pace. UWM now closes one of every three purchase loans generated by mortgage brokers. So, you say you're not going anywhere. You are the company's largest shareholder. What should we look for from UWM this year? And then where should we see you in five years from now?
Mat Ishbia:
Well, this year you're going to see our best year in company history. So, 2021 will be our best year of all time from a mortgage volume perspective, we're going to continue to grow the volume, continue to get more market share and continue to help more consumers in America. And so, that's going to happen this year.
Mat Ishbia:
And over the next five years, you're going to see the mortgage broker channel grow as well. The market share of the broker channel, which is our [inaudible 00:34:57] loans is going to grow from 20% to 25 to 30 to 35%. We're going to help accelerate that growth with things we're doing at UWM. Educating people on findamortgagebroker.com, doubling down on technology. And so, as that channel grows, we're going to grow and we're going to continue to stay in the weeds of our business and get better every single day. And so we're excited about this year, our best year of all time, we're going to make it.
Mat Ishbia:
And then next year and beyond we're going to keep doing great things. And when rates go up, that's actually when we're going to take over the number one overall mortgage company in America because once again, we're not as reliant on refinances as some of the other guys. And so, we're going to really take that next step once rates tick up, whether that's two years from now, three years from now, four years from now, who knows? But we're here for the long term to continue to grow this business.
Josh King:
And I hope when we get to the end of that reign, Mat, you'll come back and tell us, when you are number one, we'll have you back on the show and take another victory lap. Thank you so much for joining us inside the ICE House.
Mat Ishbia:
No, thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun. I appreciate it.
Josh King:
And that's our conversation for this week. Our guest was Mat Ishbia, CEO of United Wholesale Mortgage. If you like what you heard, please rate us on iTunes so other folks know where to find us. And if you've got a comment or a question you'd like one of our experts to tackle on a future show, email us at [email protected] or tweet at us @icehousepodcast.
Josh King:
Our show is produced by Kearney Ferguson with production assistance from Ken Abel, Steve Romanchic and Ian Wolf. I'm Josh King, your host, signing off from the Library of the New York Stock Exchange. Thanks for listening. Talk to you next week.
Speaker 1:
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