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From the library of the New York Stock Exchange, at the corner of Wall and Broad Streets in New York City, your Inside the ICE House, our podcast from Intercontinental Exchange on markets, leadership, and vision in global business. The dream drivers that have made the NYSE an indispensable institution for global growth for more than 225 years. Each week, we feature stories of those who hatch plans, create jobs, and harness the engine of capitalism. Right here, right now at the NYSE and at ICE's 12 exchanges and seven clearing houses around the world. Now, here's your host, Josh King, Head of Communications at Intercontinental Exchange.
Josh King:
This week was another historic one in the annals of the NYSE's over 225 year history. Like in days of old, scores of brokers surrounded post five, as Citadel's direct market maker, Peter Giacchi, barked out supply and demand for Spotify's shares. That's right. The most popular music streaming service in the world floated shares on the exchange. Something we call the NYSE direct floor listing. There were a lot of eyes watching as the exchange along with Spotify's designated market maker, Citadel, and lead financial advisor, Morgan Stanley, introduced this music platform to the public markets. Everyone questioned whether the NYSE could pull off this unique listing mechanism.
Josh King:
We didn't want to delay in providing some behind the scenes color on what happened to the exchange this week. So, here with us today in the ICE House is John Tuttle, Global Head of Listings. He's the man who is front and center of a team that's pulling in all of the major IPOs and reinventing the way we help companies raise capital through the public markets. We'll be talking for the next half hour or so to break down what happened with Spotify this week and the NYSE's first direct listing experience and what this portends for companies going public in the future through this mechanism. Our conversation with John Tuttle, right after this.
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Josh King:
The executive team here at the New York Stock Exchange rotates who is hosting the opening and Closing Bell, unless it happens to be a Michigan domiciled company. In that case, you can expect that John Tuttle, a proud Michigander, is on the podium, cheering on the bell ringer. John's journey to New York, much like mine, took a detour through the DC Beltway, where he worked for the Bush White House and the United States' State Department in the early 2000s.
Josh King:
He began at the NYSE in 2007, starting out in Corporate and Government Affairs on a steep curve that now sees him running a global team responsible for going out and attracting companies from international tech unicorns to REITs that helped capitalize the property of your favorite mall or restaurant. He was also front and center on the team that worked hand in hand with Daniel Ek, Barry McCarthy on the Spotify NYSE direct floor listing. We want to get deep into what happened yesterday and how that works in general. Welcome to the ICE House, John.
John Tuttle:
Great to be inside the ICE House. And I think you've accurately described my love, or some would argue, unhealthy love for my native and beloved Michigan.
Josh King:
So just to set the scene, let's go back and hear a little bit of what it was like watching the news this week, an incredibly exciting day on the New York Stock Exchange.
Bob Pisani:
There's no underwriter. There's nobody providing any support. There's nobody that went out and bought shares from the company itself, new shares or existing shares and sold them to people. These were simply existing shareholders that came into the market. A process managed right here by Citadel Securities, as well as Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs who were involved as advisors to this. The opening price was $165.90. Now you heard from Will, $132 was a reference price, but that was based on sort of the last trades that were done in the secondary market.
Josh King:
So John, let's pick up on what Pisani was talking about on that CNBC clip. He mentioned a reference price of $132 a share. Peter Giacchi's initial call out of what the opening price was going to be, $165.90. In a normal IPO, you have a deal price that is the result of the demand from bankers and from institutional investors on a road show, and then we might have a period of 15 minutes, maybe up to an hour, as the price discovery happens on the floor. And balance and equilibrium is discovered between supply and demand, but this reference price was something new in the lexicon.
John Tuttle:
You're right. And I think you described establishing an IPO price better than I ever could. But in many cases, going into an IPO, you have a price that you're basing things off of, that you're going out to the market with. In this case, we didn't have that because shares weren't being sold in advance, but we needed to establish a reference price from which we could begin our price discovery process. So what we did in this case-
Josh King:
Their shares sold by employees and holders on private markets.
John Tuttle:
Exactly right. Exactly, right. So what we did in this case is we looked at several different things. We read very closely through the company's registration documents, their F1, which was filed with the SEC. And talked about some of the private market trading ranges that had taken place over the past year or so. And then we also looked at some of the recent trading in the private market. We determined based on a number of variables what we thought would be an appropriate reference price. And then in consultation with the company's financial advisor, who in this case was Morgan Stanley, came up with $132 for the reference price. Now the next morning, the Bell rings at 9:30. We're taking orders and the price discovery process begins.
John Tuttle:
Now what's unique about the New York Stock Exchanges, we're very much focused on getting the price right, rather than rushing the open. We want to make sure all of the buyers and sellers, whether they be institutional investors like pension funds or mom and pop investors, like my parents back in Michigan, get their orders in. And we can find that equilibrium price, that market clearing price, to make sure that price discovery's played out, and the stock does not whipsaw all over the place. Now, because there was not a stabilization agent, we expected a bit more volatility in this direct listing.
John Tuttle:
But what we saw happen is the market open at 9:30, the price discovery process play out. And then you saw Citadel Securities, who was the designated market maker, and Peter Giacchi, the gentleman you mentioned, really start facilitating this price discovery process. So, what we do is once we get an order flow in, once we see a rough range of where we think we can open the stock, we broadcast that out to the world. We're going to say it's going to open between X and Y. That's going to attract more and more order flow into the marketplace.
Josh King:
And that was happening not at 9:30, that range came in much later. Right?
John Tuttle:
Well, I think the first indication came out shortly after 10 o'clock or around 10 o'clock. And then what we do is... Because that's broadcast widely, a lot of market participants are looking at that. They put their orders in then. That allows us to look at more and more trace, or more and more orders, to see what the market clearing price is indicated to be. So, we tighten that indication over time. We tighten it more and more.
John Tuttle:
We keep broadcasting that out to the street to get more and more order flow coming in until we can find a very tight range in which we say, "Boom, let's execute the first opening trade here, and let's have the stock trade in a nice, stable, smooth manner after that." And that's what we did. And it takes a while. Like I said, we're very much focused on getting the price right, rather than getting the stock open at a specific time. Alibaba, which was the largest IPO of all time, took to nearly, let's say 12 o'clock, noon to open.
Josh King:
This took even longer. And we saw, I think, the comparisons between Alibaba and Snapchat, we saw the open orders at 8:30, at 9:00, at 9:30, at 10:00, at 10:30. How did you read that chart, which showed such a difference between the size of the open orders between those three floats?
John Tuttle:
Right, traditionally in an IPO, you have a pretty good sense of how much volume is going to be traded in that very first trade, how much volume there will be. We want to... A general rule of thumb we have is about eight to 10 to sometimes 12% of the offering size will trade in that opening cross. Now, in a direct listing, because there are different restrictions on the selling shareholders, you don't have that rule of thumb. So, we wanted to make sure we really got as many buyers and sellers into that auction as we could. And that the brokers and others representing the buyers had gone out to their customers, make sure they had their orders in. And then we executed the opening cross.
Josh King:
By all accounts, John, when it was all done, it seemed like everybody's thought that yesterday's first direct floor listing for Spotify was a success. Your team, and, in fact, the entire NYSE staff put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into it. Were you ever in doubt that there would be a positive outcome?
John Tuttle:
That is what we do best here, is we execute complex transactions like big IPOs, high profile IPOs, spinoffs, carve outs, emergence from bankruptcies, uplistings. One where you watch human beings interacting with sophisticated technology to create better outcomes. Because we certainly believe having somebody on the floor there at the point of sale, there to make this decision with accountability, capital, and judgment there, is going to lead to better outcomes for market participants and for the issuer as well.
Josh King:
I think a bunch of interviews yesterday in watching CNBC, Fox Business News, Bloomberg, the question was, is this a model for all tech companies going public? Is this a new paradigm of how stocks should think about listing their shares on the Exchange?
John Tuttle:
And that's a really good question because if you think about why companies go public, they go public for several reasons. Number one is to raise capital, to grow and expand their business, and invest in new plants, property equipment, launch new products, or even in some cases return some capital to shareholders, whether they be venture capital funds, private equity firms. So they can go out there and reallocate that to the next great wave of technology companies. Some companies choose to go public, or one of the factors they consider is the visibility. The ability to advance their brand, raise awareness of the company, and ultimately help them advance their corporate strategy.
John Tuttle:
There's other key reasons to go public. Liquidity, the ability to buy and sell those shares in a more public venue and more freely. And also to have a currency. So, share that you can use to go out and acquire other companies, or you can use to incentivize employees, et cetera. If you look at a NYSE direct floor listing, there's only a finite universe of companies that fit into this bucket that would be really interested in this. Because again, most companies, the number one reason they go public is to raise that capital. So you have to be a company that's well capitalized, probably doesn't want or need visibility, but you really want to enjoy the other benefits of being a publicly traded company. That is the liquidity, the currency for M&A and for employee incentives.
Josh King:
Doesn't want or need the visibility. But Spotify was pretty clear that that's not why they were there.
John Tuttle:
I mean, we've been working with Spotify for many years. I mean, we've gotten to know Daniel Barry, the whole management team there. And from day one, it was never about ringing a Bell for them. It was about finding the best partner to help them execute this transaction in the best way possible for the company and for their shareholders. And the Bell is great. It's the most highly viewed daily news event in the world. It's a great branding opportunity. So, for so many of our partners and companies... But this was also, if you looked at the news outlets, a day long commercial for Spotify, as they watched the price discovery process play out on the floor. The Bell's fantastic. It's less than a minute long. They had probably five hours of great coverage.
Josh King:
And people like Gene Simmons on CNBC, entertainment people far and wide had a view on what was happening yesterday. You didn't need someone pressing a button yesterday, did you?
John Tuttle:
Exactly. Yeah. There were certainly a lot of views on the offering and not just from those in the entertainment space. But that's what's so special about this place. What happens on the trading floor matters and impacts and affects people and they have views on it as well. So, whether it be people from entertainment, investment bankers, investors, the mom and pop investors, the institutional investors, or just the Spotify user, who's interested in seeing what's happening with the company and how they're going to continue you to create a great product. There's a lot of attention on this moment. And so even though the Bell didn't ring for one minute for Spotify, there was a lot of attention on the brand and the business.
Josh King:
In fact, if you think about the mission of Spotify, which is to democratize the delivery of music and to make people sing everywhere, on the podium yesterday, there was a beautiful addition of a song by the epic players and what they represented. So whether it was Spotify or someone else, that Bell ringing was very much a testament to musicians and artists and the ability to sing.
John Tuttle:
Right. And it's a very special place here at the Exchange. I mentioned the incredible visibility platform that's been built up over 225 years. We love leveraging that platform for our listed companies. We love leveraging it for companies coming to the market for the very first time, but we also love leveraging it for great causes and great groups of people to help advance the great work they're doing, just like the epic players.
Josh King:
So then inside post five, the first trade was executed at Bob Pisani. He was standing with the President of the New York Stock Exchange, Tom Farley. I want to play just a little bit of a clip of their exchange.
Bob Pisani:
... Is the President of the New York Stock Exchange. And Tom, what impressed me about this whole process, how orderly it was. I know there were a little bit of nervousness down here overnight about what potential for wild gyrations there were, but really pretty orderly.
Tom Farley:
Yeah, incredibly smooth. I look now, it's trading at $166, which is right where we opened it. Aside from the bankers, Morgan Stanley, Goldman, Allen & Company, the real MVPs are this floor community here. You saw how the market makers here at Citadel came together with the floor community and found that level price. There was a lot of concern and agitation about that, but I'm looking at it now, and it's trading smoothly. What a great start for this company as a public company. And now they can go back to focusing...
Josh King:
A lot of focus. John Tuttle, Global Head of Listings, the New York Stock Exchange on the exchange itself on this listing venue. But as Tom was just talking, it was a real team effort with Daniel Ek, Barry McCarthy, and the team at Spotify, the financial advisors, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, Allen & Co, and Citadel and the floor community. Each one an important role player in a direct floor listing. Take them one by one, and what was their role in making everything so successful yesterday?
John Tuttle:
You nailed it. It is a team effort. Nobody can do this alone. And we have great partners in executing transactions like this. Number one, Spotify, you have a visionary entrepreneur, CEO, who built an incredible company and wanted to come to market in a slightly different way. And he's built the business in a different way. He's going to come to the market in a different way. And he's surrounded himself by a creative thinking management team that, again, we've been involved with for years and worked through and discussed this transaction with.
John Tuttle:
So, really the vision came from dialogue between us and Spotify. And they've been involved in from day one in building this incredible company. You go down the list and you look at the investment banks that played a role here. You had Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Allen & Company that were there supporting the company, getting them ready to be a public company, working with some of their private shareholders and others to get ready for this public market debut. But within that group, you had Morgan Stanley serving in this slightly different role of financial advisor. And so that's who we consulted with in coming up with the reference price, et cetera.
John Tuttle:
Next, you had the designated market maker. What's different about the New York Stock Exchange from any other, not only domestic exchange, but any international exchange, is the designated market maker. Here's somebody who has to be on the bid and the offer of the stock at all times, no matter the market condition, whether it's Brexit day, a hurricane hits, et cetera, they have a regulatory obligation to be there and to ensure a fair and orderly market. And they're there at the point of sale with judgment, accountability, and capital to help make sure the stock trades in a nice, fair, and orderly way.
John Tuttle:
And then you have the brokers and the other members of the floor community that are out there representing, again, everybody from those large institutional investors, to the smaller mom and pop investors, and everything in between. And you know what's interesting? It's a transaction like this that reminds the world of why the trading floor matters. Along the way, we've invested in great technology, state of the art technology. We're investing in it more and more and more.
John Tuttle:
But you know what, several years ago, I had a United States Senator on the floor. He says, "Why are you still at the trading floor?" He says, "Couldn't you do this electronically? People could be back in their offices, in different states, and around the world." And I had the trading floor's was next to me. He says, "Why do we have a Senate? Couldn't you be back in your home state? Couldn't you be close to your constituents? Couldn't you just vote electronically?"
John Tuttle:
But for the big decisions, the things that matter. When something happens, you want a place where people come together to get the best outcome possible. And that's what we saw yesterday morning with the Spotify direct floor listing. And all eyes and lenses were on Peter Giacchi at the Citadel post yesterday, but he's back there today. He's back there today. He's there ensuring the fair and orderly market in Spotify and other companies that are listed and traded here on the New York Stock Exchange. And he's there 9:30 in the morning through 4:00 PM during the trending. And then he is with those companies after that, following up with them.
Josh King:
When it opened at $165.90, if you looked at its movement throughout the day, it pretty much just floated on a slightly lower diagonal toward its close, but it really was not volatile. What made the trading in it so stable, do you think?
John Tuttle:
I think it certainly is the designated market maker. Having them there at the point of sale, making sure that the stock's not whipsawing all over the place and also communicating with the other market participants. If there's a large buy order coming in, making sure that that balance is offset. Look, this was expected to be a more volatile transaction than an IPO. You didn't have a stabilization agent with a green shoe there to help stabilize the price, not only at the open, but for an extended period of time. And so having that designated market maker there, really there at the point of sale to make sure it was fair and orderly and to solicit interest if there's order imbalances, really paid off. And we were proud to see the outcome from yesterday.
Josh King:
You've only had about 24 hours to process all of this, but I'm sure you've been gathering up with the team thinking about things that you might do differently, but also bringing the message in what happened yesterday to some companies that might be considering following a similar path.
John Tuttle:
Well, first of all, we communicate with a lot of companies. A lot of them have been curious. Either for themselves or just to learn more about the markets and how they're continuing to evolve, to meet issuer and investor demands. And so now that the dust is settled, it's 24 hours later, we're going to follow up with them and show them the data of how it all... show them what worked, why it could be beneficial or not beneficial in their particular case, and share that info information with them. So when they're ready to come to market, they can make the best decision possible in how they want to access the market, whether it be via an IPO, a direct floor listing, or a new project for us to work on.
Josh King:
A great day for Spotify, a great day for its employees and investors, a great day for the New York Stock Exchange. And after the break, John and I will talk about what's next in the NYSE's IPO pipeline.
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Josh King:
Back now with John Tuttle, Global Head of Listings, the New York Stock Exchange. John, so far 2018, we're now through about a quarter. January, February, March, we're into April. It has been a roller coaster year for markets. How has that impacted your team's efforts to attract IPOs? January's certainly a blockbuster.
John Tuttle:
If we look back at last year, we listed nearly 100 companies, helped them raise over 33 billion dollars to grow and expand their businesses, create new jobs, improve quality of life, not only across this country, but around the world. This year started off great. January was the best year in our 225 year history for IPOs. We hit a little bit of volatility in February. We still saw companies come to market. March has been strong. In fact, the first quarter of this year was the best first quarter for the U.S. IPO market in a decade. And we have a robust pipeline of companies set to come to market April, May, the second half of the year. And it's not just U.S. companies. It's not just tech companies. It's companies from across industries and from across geographies.
Josh King:
In the past two weeks, John, we can't ignore the fact that people are saying, the numbers are proving up that we are in correction territory. The FANG stocks, Facebook, Alphabet, Netflix, Google, and the others are down as much as 20%. What drove Spotify's decision to go public now? Could they have delayed? I mean, in one sense, they really weren't trying to raise money. Were they?
John Tuttle:
Oh, they weren't raising money. So, it really did not matter when they came to marketplace. And we've known from day one that they've had a long term vision for this company. They weren't trying to time the market. They were going to come to the market when they were ready to come to the market. Not necessarily when the market was ready for them. And just to talk about market conditions briefly for a moment, yeah. Markets go up and down. In the 225 year history of the New York Stock Exchange, the chart starts in the bottom left and it ends in the upper right, but it's not a straight line. And on day to day, whether it's discussions about trade, tariffs, tech, et cetera, are going to move the market up and down, but that's what markets do. They go up and down. The companies that are coming here have long-term visions. We have a marketplace to help support them in the long term and to dampen volatility from some of these geopolitical or market related events.
Josh King:
Does what happened this week offer a bit of reset? Will people look again and look at their own timing and thinking, "Well, if Spotify could do it, so can we."
John Tuttle:
Well, tech companies... Look, you mentioned, some of them have seen their shares down year to date, but if you look back over a longer period, the stocks are up significantly. So, and if you look at the companies that have come to market, largely from the technology space, most of them have performed well in the weeks, months, and quarters following their listings. So, a lot of technology companies are looking to come to market. Maybe there's some volatility, and they push a week, two weeks, a month or so. But the reception has been fairly warm.
Josh King:
We've seen a lot of listings, a lot of international listings over the past few months. We've seen a lot of real estate related listings. What is hot right now in the IPO market?
John Tuttle:
Looking out and looking at the IPO pipeline, it's really diverse. So, it's everything from technology companies from outside the United States to industrial companies in America's Heartland and everything in between. And when they're ready to come to market, we'll be ready to welcome them. But I'm really encouraged by the diversity of the pipeline of companies.
Josh King:
When we have an IPO, we always love to welcome their executive teams, their leaders, to ring the Opening Bell. Often though, it will be a head of state, head of government, representatives of a particular charity. To put some of the listing companies aside for a minute, what are some of your memories over your years here about people who particularly impressed you who've been at that podium and the stories that they represent?
John Tuttle:
That's an amazing place. I mean, we all skip to work here every day because you get to meet the most interesting people from business, academia, government entrepreneurs. And when you're on the trading floor, you have the opportunity to run into... You will literally run into the Daytona 500 champion, introduce that person to a Fortune 500 CEO, then pull in a tech entrepreneur and throw in a prime minister.
John Tuttle:
That's what happens at this place. And I'm a little bit biased, but I say there's four buildings that define America. The White House, the Capitol, the Supreme Court, and the New York Stock Exchange. So, it's a special place and a special platform. And just every day is special here. I mean, getting to see an entrepreneur who's seen their dream come true. I mean, 10 years, 15 years before they founded a company against all odds, have worked hard, had an unwavering commitment to excellence, to shareholder value creation, to their customers. And to see that pay off by standing on the podium and being there to take their company to the next level and impact more lives, is really inspiring.
John Tuttle:
But I'll tell you from a personal standpoint, what the most special days are for me is that the history of the exchange and the history of the country are inextricably intertwined. And it's also intertwined with the history of the United States military. And we have a tradition here at the Stock Exchange where every time the Medal of Honor is awarded by the President of the United States, the highest honor that can be stowed upon a member of the United States armed forces, they receive the medal at the White House, and almost the next day or a couple days later, they come to the New York stock Exchange and make a visit, ring the bell. To be in the presence with one of those people, somebody who selflessly fought for their country to allow us the opportunity to do what we do here each day is really something special and not lost on us for a moment.
Josh King:
We both made it here at one point or another through Washington D.C., through our times in government. What about your early career sort of paved the way for your work with dignitaries? I mean, was it being on the Gridiron at Eastern Michigan or your time in the White House? What are the things that prepare one both for work in government and then up here at the NYSE?
John Tuttle:
Oh, I think there's a lot of life lessons you can learn from all corners of your life experiences. One of which is being bashful gets you nowhere. Don't be afraid to ask for something and always surround yourself or connect yourself to great people. Because it'll take you along with them, and you can then have the opportunity to pay that forward. But I briefly played football at Eastern Michigan University and had injured myself playing basketball with some friends and thought, "What do I want to do next?" And I'd always been interested in politics. I'd always been interested in government. And I thought, "Ah, I'll apply for an internship with my Congressman." And at the time, my local Congressman represented Michigan's 11th district.
John Tuttle:
And so I got all of my materials ready and I thought, "You know what? Let's swing for the fences. Why don't I just apply for a White House internship and see where that goes?" Didn't come from a family of politically connected family. We weren't big donors or anything like that. And the program had just been scaled down significantly. Never heard back from my Congressman, got into the White House. I was one of a few slots that were there. The guy who saw my resume just thought I was an interesting person and well versed. And fortunately that's been the only job I've had to apply for in my life. And connecting yourself to great people leads to the next opportunity. And that's what's happened along the way from various roles in D.C., to various roles here at the New York Stock Exchange.
Josh King:
How'd you make the jump from state to here?
John Tuttle:
I made a pivot through business school. And-
Josh King:
Where?
John Tuttle:
University of Notre Dame in South Bend, Indiana. And then I came up here, and what I thought was going to be a six month stint between being in business school and law school. And here I am well over a decade later.
Josh King:
So, you've seen over that decade, a huge amount of change at the NYSE. Certainly saw Intercontinental Exchange purchase the Exchange in 2012, close on that exchange in 2013. As we wrap up here, what are the major changes that have happened on your watch, and where do you think things are going to go from here?
John Tuttle:
People who listen to Inside the ICE House have a pretty good sense of ICE's history. And I know you recently interviewed our founder, Jeff Sprecher, and chairman. But if you think about it, the New York Stock Exchange for 200 plus years was kind of this member-owned organization, not for profit. You owned a seat on the New York Stock Exchange, that was your license to do business here. And we really operated for the benefit of our seat holders.
John Tuttle:
Now, 15 years ago, the competitive landscape changed significantly with some new regulations that came into place. New competition came into the space, and we had to change the exchange. And it became leaner, more efficient, more global, multi-product. But at that same time, 15, 16, 17 years ago, Jeff Sprecher was founding ICE out of his spare bedroom. And over the years, they had to grow and expand and become a little bit more structured, a little bit more process-oriented.
John Tuttle:
And when the deal happened, while both of us were on opposite ends of the spectrum and had come towards the center, there was still a gap there, and you could only have one culture. And we adopted to the culture that Jeff had built at ICE. And it's really one that has been beneficial for our customers, for our partners, for our employees, and so many others. And it's one that's provided a lot of opportunity for me personally, as well.
John Tuttle:
The only thing I can promise you is that the market is going to continue to evolve. The space is going to continue to evolve. We've seen different things become more important, whether it be market data, et cetera. And where this business goes remains to be seen, but excited to be along for the journey.
Josh King:
So, John Tuttle, from the Bank of New York, the first company listed in the New York Stock Exchange, to Spotify, our Global Head of Listings. Thanks so much for joining us here in the ICE House.
John Tuttle:
Great to be inside the ICE House. Thanks for having me.
Josh King:
That's our conversation for this week. Our guest was John Tuttle, Global Head of Listings for the New York Stock Exchange. If you like what you heard, you've heard me ask you this before. I'll say it again. Please rate us on iTunes, so that other folks know where they can find us. And if you've got a comment on this episode or a question you'd like one of our expert to tackle on a future show, email us at [email protected], or tweet at us @NYSE. Our show is produced by Pete Ash and Ian Wolf, with production assistance from Ken Abel and Steven Porter. I'm Josh King, your host, signing off from the Library of the New York Stock Exchange. Thanks for listening. Talk to you next week.
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