Lance Glinn:

Welcome into another episode of the Inside the ICE House podcast. Today's guest is Noel Archard. He is a managing director and the global head of product solutions and marketing for AllianceBernstein.

Noel, thanks so much for joining us inside the ICE house. Happy to have you here.

Noel Archard:

Thanks so much for the invitation.

Lance Glinn:

So before we get into what AllianceBernstein has accomplished and where the firm is headed, I do want to sort of start big picture, look more holistically. When you think about AB at its core, beyond the numbers and the assets and everything like that, how do you describe who AllianceBernstein is and the role it plays in the global investment ecosystem?

Noel Archard:

Yeah. We talk a lot about this, especially when I'm wearing my marketing hat, what do we mean to the marketplace and how do we interface with clients? I think at our heart, we are a very research driven asset manager that really believes in active risk management and really thinks about what problems clients are trying to solve and how can we bring a lens of both an asset management and a wealth management perspective into that. And I think really importantly, a global perspective because we are a global company. But we are also a very ... The way that I think about sort of a one-to-one company, we really do engage deeply with our clients.

In this world, scale is always important, but scale can get in the way of that sometimes. And so we always try and think about how we're going to grow in a reasonable, sustainable way that allows us to keep that interface with clients. So at its heart, it is very much a people company that's leveraging our insights in the market and our technology to try and deliver really good experiences for our investors.

Lance Glinn:

And I'm glad you brought up one part of your answer. You talked about with scale, it is harder and harder, or you need to make sure with scale to still stay true to those customer facing routes. Wanting to make sure that you are in front of the customer, you're working with the customer, you make it personal, you make it customized so that to them you understand what they need, you understand what they want. But in today's world that's increasingly complex, how difficult is that? Because like you said, AllianceBernstein is a global firm. It manages a ton of money, it manages a ton of clients. So how do you make sure that you're still able to provide that same service that maybe the firm was able to provide when Alliance and Bernstein first came together and even when they were two separate entities?

Noel Archard:

Yeah. I think a lot of that comes into continuing the engagement. Leveraging technology is a big piece of this because how can you get more and more efficient with your time so that you can spend more and more time with your clients and in today's world that's actually a really compelling part of the story. But I also think it comes down to making sure that you're asking the right questions. I mean, I love my colleagues at work because they are problem solvers and sometimes you work with problem identifiers, which is good we need to identify the problem-

Lance Glinn:

Yeah, yeah. Everyone needs to identify the problem, it's solving it.

Noel Archard:

... but solving it is always the trick. And we have a lot of folks that get very creative about it. And we really try and it is not a firm that really goes out there and sort of, let's push a product. Let's tell you what we think is best for you. The conversation really starts with what are you trying to solve for your portfolio, for your client's portfolios? I said my dream conversation is always like, just tell me what sort of burns time for you. What is inefficient? What is a problem for you to achieve? And let me take that away. And sometimes it's an investment strategy, but sometimes it's an operational angle and that operational angle sometimes can yield far more engagements with the client than even that access to the investment strategy.

Lance Glinn:

And then when it comes to just company culture, how would you describe the modern AllianceBernstein culture and the capabilities and how the firm shows up so that their colleagues are not just problem identifiers, they're problem solvers and you can be creative and you can feel empowered to work with the clients and solve their needs.

Noel Archard:

Yeah. I would say there's two aspects to it. One is just the internal people environment, which I think is so critical and it is an incredibly collegial environment. I've been with AB now a bit over four years, so I've been there long enough for the shine to come off of all the things that you hear as you go through the process of joining a firm and the willingness to lean in and help each other at that firm and to share ideas on how to solve problems is really top-notch. And I think part of that stems from the firm has very low turnover. The people have spent their entire careers at AB practically through all sorts of market cycles, ups, downs, highs and lows. And then there's been an infusion of, there's always sort of new people that come into it.

But that idea of make sure that we are always pushing forward, always thinking creatively, but be a good person to your colleagues and make sure that you're working well together because you spend a lot of time at work. That's hypercritical. So you have sort of a cultural foundation that I think people hold the bar really high on and you pair that then with a willingness to try new things. Not everything works. And I think some firms, it's like, succeed or get out of the way. We certainly have a very growth oriented culture. We want to succeed, but we are also pretty good at, hey, this is working or not working. Do we change direction? Do we evolve? And all of that goes back to that, just continue to have conversations with clients. Is this working? What do you need? What do you need today? We improved this. Is it still helping you grow your business?

Lance Glinn:

And look, as crazy as it sounds, sometimes failing ultimately then leads to that next success. But it's failing and then obviously growing from that failure and learning from that failure.

Noel Archard:

Yeah. You never want to make the same mistake twice. Mistakes are good because they do help. My favorite thing from another industry or statement from another industry was I was watching in the early days, one of the rocket launches, it blew up a few shortly after it left the pad and you heard the engineers like, "Oh, that was an RUD." We'll debrief. I'm like, "What's an RUD?" It's like a rapid unscheduled, whatever the D stands for. And it's just like-

Lance Glinn:

Oh, yeah, blew up.

Noel Archard:

It's a nice word for disassembly, rapid unscheduled disassembly. You're like, okay, it fell apart and blew up. But what did you learn from it? And then make sure the next one doesn't happen.

Lance Glinn:

And so you mentioned it in a previous answer, you joined AllianceBernstein back in 2022, so a little bit over four years as the firm's first ever global head of ETFs and Portfolio Solutions. So take us back to that moment, the opportunity to be with AB. What did you see in the firm at the time that told you there was a real opportunity to build something here?

Noel Archard:

That's great. Yeah, that's a fun question. And it was when I got the call, actually they were like, AB's looking to get into this. And my reaction was like, great, I know a few people I'll give you [inaudible 00:07:26]-

Lance Glinn:

So you thought you were just the middle man, so to speak.

Noel Archard:

I was talking to a recruiter that I've done for many years, have great respect for and I'm friends with. And she was like, "No, I think you should talk to these people." And a lot of it was about the culture. She's like, "The culture and the people, I think there's going to be something that resonates there." And it piqued my interest enough as I started thinking about it. It's a brand that I knew or I should say I thought I knew. And then as I did my research before engaging in the conversation, I was interested in a few facets. One, it's a company with a global footprint and I think the insights that you get from that, the diversification you get from that is really powerful.

Secondly, it has a private wealth arm to it, which again, that infusion of the asset management and the wealth management side, I think a really powerful combination. It's a firm that has a nice diversification between equity, fixed income and alternatives exposures. So it had all these interesting parts and it was of a size that it had scale, it had presence in various parts of the market and distribution channels, but it also was of a size that you felt like, hey, you could go in there and as I've said, sort of try things that AB has always had a reputation.

Lance Glinn:

And especially as the first, because you were the first global head of ETFs and Portfolio Solutions, did that sort of provide you the opportunity to try new things, see what worked, see what didn't? Maybe not fail per se, but at least throw things against the wall for lack of a better term and see what's there.

Noel Archard:

Well, I think two things. One, certainly there was a body of work that had happened before I got there, because the firm had to get to a decision of like, yes, this is something we want to add, and now do we bring in people that have background or experience in doing this? I think there was absolutely, "Look, we hired you because of what you know has maybe worked or not worked elsewhere. Come in, learn how we do things and see how that sort of melds onto our processes."

I give, again, the leadership team so much credit because coming in when I did, they also gave me latitude to hire a team, either folks internal that had been working on it or external to build up that bench and they committed to that budget. And you think about 22, fall of 22 when we first launched our first few products, you had Russia, Ukraine, you had Silicon Valley Bank, you had rate changes, you had a lot of turmoil-

Lance Glinn:

A lot of variables and turmoil to your point, right?

Noel Archard:

... within 18 months and it was just, keep going. This is something that we decided we wanted to do that we wanted to add into the lineup or the offerings for our clients and they were committed to it.

Lance Glinn:

So Noel, you've been in the industry longer than the four years that you've been at AB. And since those early launches, the ETF industry has grown from a niche vehicle to really a central pillar of global markets. From your perspective, what would you describe as really the most dramatic or most important way that the industry has evolved, not just in size but in purpose and even expectations from investors?

Noel Archard:

Yeah. Obviously the great thing when you've been doing this for a long time, it's rare that the exact same situation comes up, but it sensitizes you a bit to what might come up and hit. So we built a lot of checks and balances into the system as we started, even down to the types of products we initially wanted to come out with. And some of that was, again, learning the firm and figuring out where we had strengths, where we might need to just think about the buildup in a slightly slower fashion. And I think when I came in, it was like, okay, I hired in Feb of 22 and initially it was like, okay, we're going to have six to 12 products by the end of the year. I was like, maybe two or three, let's make sure we get the framework up.

And we actually, the first two we launched were fixed income products, which I did not anticipate.That's usually a bit stickier wicket, but because of the tech stack that AB had and their proficiency in trading some of the fixed income products, we were able to put out some very robust products early on and then the ETF scale up over 23 products now, three and a half years later. So once we had the template down, once we had that chassis built to a level we felt comfortable with, it gave us the ability to put it out there. Now some of it too was getting people to think about where we had opportunities to move fast and where we were going to have to be patient as far as platform adoption or these are active products.

I mean, that's part of the mindset shift even of folks I brought onto the team who might have grown up in more of a pure ETF passive world, it's like, "Hey, there's going to be a track record that has to be proven, there's going to be some time to season and market. If there's an idea that we have and we don't have a team that runs that strategy, we can't just go out and say, okay, we'll find the appropriate index and build something with it." So little bit of, again, take your past experiences and then conform it to the new basis.

Lance Glinn:

And then where did the marketing with all of this come in? Because in my intro, I said head of product solutions, global head of product solutions and marketing. So where does the marketing ... How did you decide that that was something you wanted to sort of bring into your own personal portfolio and add to what was already a sizable and important role at AllianceBernstein?

Noel Archard:

Yeah. I feel like very graciously gave me the opportunity to take that on as well, but some of it came from prior experiences in my work, work life either leading marketing efforts or working closely with the marketing teams. Having come in to build up an ETF program at AB, one of the core principles we wanted to achieve with ETFs was to reach new audiences. So from day on, the team that I pulled together to focus on the ETFs was working extremely closely with the marketing team to think about how were we going to brand these, what would it look like within that AB framework? How could we reach new audiences and cut through the clutter of a very busy ETF world? And some of this was bringing in elements, again, of prior experiences that I had had in seeing that the great synergy you get between distribution being sales and marketing working together with a product that has unbelievable flexibility and reach.

And so I think I showed a high degree of passion for the marketing processes over the last few years. And so as of January, the global marketing teams folded into the group. I've got tremendous co CMOs running the teams around the globe and it's incredibly fun and challenging to think about not only the ETF lineup, but marketing in general in a world that is changing so rapidly in that space and the ways that we can reach clients, use data, privacy laws that keep evolving. There's great stuff to dig into there.

Lance Glinn:

I would think as a marketer as well, you really have to work and structure your pitch plan, how you sell these, how you promote these to cut through all the noise that comes with the industry and all of the different products that are out there. So from your standpoint, how do you do that? How do you make sure that you're able to get your message out when there are thousands of other messages also trying to get their point across?

Noel Archard:

Yeah. Well, I think you always want to ... To me, it always comes back to that, what are you trying to do for a client? And the more you can hone in on that and have that resonate, the better chance you have of cutting through that noise. We certainly don't approach it from a perspective of, hey, we've got sort of a one size fits all solution. And so that's a lot of what my team thinks about is the vehicle strategy and we try and talk to clients in that way. Again, what are you trying to solve? Is it income? Is it pricing power? Is it taxes trying to reduce the tax bill for your clients? Depending on that answer, there's a different combination of strategies and vehicles that are going to get you to that right place. So that's one, that's sort of the almost call it the mainstream conversation that you're going to have, but bringing in that overlay of your vehicle strategy, which can be really important.

But we also really try to engage with clients in ways that really look at them for our intermediary business and that's really the focus. All of them in some ways are small business owners. And as a small business owner, what are you trying to do? How do you want to continue to gain leverage or efficiencies for your staff, your teams? We have advisor institutes. We have different ways of giving reporting on some of our SMA products that are incredibly useful as far as insights that they can share with their clients. So it's really coming in and thinking about what that sort of wraparound experience is and helping them grow their businesses and not just sort of showing up and saying, "Hey, we got a really good investment strategy and this will fit this part of your portfolio." We try and really look at their whole business experience.

Lance Glinn:

And how important is the aspect of education, not only just for those institutional, but to say those retail investors that you're also trying to hit. How important is educating them on the ETF, on the strategy, on what it carries, making sure that they are familiar and understanding of what the product is?

Noel Archard:

Yeah, it is critical and it's never ending. I mean, that's what amazes me is that doing this for 30 years and still having 101 conversations on a regular basis and that's a good thing.

Lance Glinn:

Yeah, I was going to say, are you happy about that?

Noel Archard:

Absolutely.

Lance Glinn:

Because that just shows that people are then more and more interested in the industry on an everyday basis.

Noel Archard:

Yeah, it's about growth. And again, the conversations in some cases are new. In some cases it's pouring knowledge. You find people that are power users of equity ETFs, but really haven't bought fixed incomes. They're like, "Well, I only buy ... I tend to ladder or I use it in different ways." And to talk to them then about ways that you can pair the ladder with an ETF in a way that gets them to maybe a better risk return or creates a liquidity sleeve. Same conversations with institutions in the early days of the beta products. Now with the alpha, it's the same thing. If you're accumulating assets or you don't want to be gated for a particular strategy that you want access to, there's a real power to that.

Then you get into the growth of derivative overlay products and went from 1.6 billion, two billion ballpark to 160 billion over the last five, six years to outcome type solution products. So the education is always there and I think it's great because it just shows it's still a very vibrant part of our industry. And as much as we spend time educating on ETFs, we do the same thing for SMAs, which continue to expand their footprint. Same thing with models, same thing with alternatives, which is a big part of our life at AP as well.

Lance Glinn:

And as the financial ecosystem, not just ETFs, you mentioned SMAs, alternatives, so on and so forth, as it continues to evolve and it seems to be evolving, especially with all the technology at a much faster pace than it was really ever evolving before, how do you stay ahead of the curve or how do you focus on making sure that to a certain extent you kind of know what your clients are going to want before they want it? Because I think that's the key. You don't want to fall behind what they want. You want to be ahead of it so that when they come to you, you're like, "Oh, we can do this or we can do that and it's already ready to go."

Noel Archard:

Yeah, you're already there. Some of this, again, is using a little bit of the technology to keep yourself more efficient because it's an interesting point is staying ahead of it, your needs are going to be different than my needs. That firm's different than that firm. There might be some commonalities, but being able to dial in and create more, I think as we go forward, especially in the years to come sort of more bespoke solutions, whether that's content solutions, education or products, is going to be more important and being able to reach people directly.

We're used to this in other part of our lives. Financial services still has some, I would say some guardrails up, but you think about, you have a conversation with a friend and suddenly every ad on your phone is popping up, you pass by a reader and it knows you lingered for a little while in front of a storefront, but that gets to, well, that's something you're interested in. And it actually in some way might sometimes feels creepy, but can be really helpful.

Lance Glinn:

Sometimes, yeah.

Noel Archard:

I have seen things where like, I really wasn't thinking about that, but now it's all I'm thinking about. And so I think that's we try and keep, this goes back to what I said earlier, keeping that client engagement up and focusing again on, "Hey, this is really good for this reporting that we've been giving you for the last three or four years on the tax alpha that you get out of our products has been helpful. Is it still what you need?" And of course what's going to come back is like, "This is great, but now my clients are asking me questions about this" or, "They want to know about changes."

We've all gotten used to, as we talk internally about how we evolve our servicing model too, it's that sort of Amazon mentality of like, "Oh, you just ordered something. Oh, we have your order. Your order is on the way. Here's a picture of your order at the front door. Here's a picture of you picking up your order out in the front door." It's this sort of real time knowledge of how you're interacting with the company and then thinking about how we can make your life easier.

Lance Glinn:

So Noel, AllianceBernstein as we know it today is different than the AllianceBernstein that came to be in 2000, but obviously even those 2000 routes go back much further. Bernstein was founded in 1967 Alliance in 1971. How do you think about telling a story, a multi-decade story, but in a modern, relevant way that resonates with today's audiences besides just looking at it chronologically, here's what's happened, X, Y, and Z. How do you really feel or think about telling a story today?

Noel Archard:

Yeah. So a lot of this comes from, I think it's such a fun question and it's important to challenge yourself around that story too, because especially at a firm with a strong culture and folks who have worked there for such a long time, we have a view of ourselves because we live and breathe it every day. Is that what our audience thinks of us, the audience of that message? And so some of this is testing to see if how we think about ourselves resonates. And that's an important part of it to make sure that we are keeping true to ourselves and telling the story in a way that does resonate as you said.

What's good about our story is that while the times have changed, while the firm is certainly evolved in the products that we put out or how we support those products, ultimately we are a firm that's very focused, that's very research driven, that's very process oriented and very risk managed and that's been a pervasive element of the story and sort of that willingness to engage with clients around what their needs are and can we then get innovative around providing solutions around that, those are sort of the core attributes that have stayed there, that have remained over the years.

And so that's what we continue, are we living up to that and everything that we do is sort of the bar testing that with our external clients, but then you've got to think about how do you deliver that message? And so much of that is it's the normal, like you've got to show real proof points around that to make sure that it resonates and takes hold. Anyone can say we're really good at fixed income, but the proof points might be like, "Hey, we get your portfolio invested in 25% of the time it would take our competitors because we've invested in our trade tech in order to do that. Here's our instance of avoiding defaults in the products versus what you'll see in the benchmark."

There is proof in the pudding and those are the points that you have to tease out in ways that explain again, this is why working with us is good for your portfolio.

Lance Glinn:

So to those proof points that you talked about in your last answer, we are in a world where audiences are fragmented across platforms, across channels, across formats. How do you maintain focus and discipline in deciding where AB shows up, how AB shows up, where it invests in, and just as importantly, where it decides not to invest in and where it decides not to show up?

Noel Archard:

And this is the fun or challenging bit of our business too. I talked about the diversity of AB's book, 40% in equity, 40 in fixed income, 20% in alternatives, about a third of it in retail, a third of it in private wealth, a third of it in institutional assets and then the global overlay of what that looks like for the US footprint versus 65-ish percent US-based, 35% outside, a little bit variation there. What's really fascinating is we might be known in one country or region really have amazing brand and footprint and equity and then you go halfway around the world like, "You guys are great at fixed income. I don't use you as much for equity."

So it's sort of a fun problem to have is we have a very diversified business and we're known in different markets, but we've been in Europe since the late '70s and Asia, since the '80s. We have long tenure in these other areas, we operate 50 offices around the globe. So it is a little bit of us. It's that classic, okay, do we lean into what we're known for and continue to grow the pool there or do we try and bring some of that expertise where we're really known elsewhere and invest in it? And the answer, of course, is you always want to flex a little bit. You want to plant future seeds. And so we try and get a little bit of that balance. You want to continue to grow where you're strong, but to the extent you can use that leveraging and pull in those points, you do that.

And some of this, because we are an intermediary type focused business, we also let our clients, the larger platforms help guide us on what is going to resonate. If a solution we're bringing to them, you already know us and trust us for our equity franchise, let us really show you what we can do on fixed income and then promote that out to the marketplace. It's kind of powerful when you've got a good partner within a region as well besides just trying to go at it alone.

Lance Glinn:

And to that point, you've been in certain places for a long time with certain products and that longevity and those proof points that we talked about earlier, those build trust with marketplaces.

Noel Archard:

100%.

Lance Glinn:

So how do you then focus on building potentially that trust in other marketplaces that might not be there yet, but then also sustaining trust where it currently does live in your marketing because that's what people ultimately want. They want to spend the money, they want to work with people that they trust and that they can believe in. How do you focus on that from a marketing perspective and making sure your marketing comes through with that trust?

Noel Archard:

A lot of that is we spend a fair amount of time on brand marketing versus just the distinct product push. The product placement can be a little bit more focused, especially in today's age of sort of like we'll dial in with the data that we know and try and get the specific things there. But reinforcing the brand is a pretty important part in a lot of what our spend is on and we are equally comfortable or in some cases more comfortable saying, look, we'll run sort of marketing isn't just what you see within the popups on the web or the social media campaigns. It's as much, what are we doing with events? And events don't have to be trying to get 500 people into a room. It's if you get 30 people into the room to have very intimate conversation because you understand their business and you're talking, you're bringing some of your best minds from inside the firm or partners outside the firm to share knowledge, that's as much about that trust building exercise as well.

So that's where we try and leverage, again, these longstanding relationships and knowledge of being in the particular regions and not running things from afar. That's a big part of the trust element too. You literally are speaking the same language, you're understanding the nuances of their marketplace and bringing that into the conversation.

Lance Glinn:

So Noel, as you look ahead, just from a strategy standpoint and a platform standpoint too, where do you think the firm is really uniquely positioned to deliver value in a changing investment landscape? Because we talked about how quickly it is changing and how you need to stay ahead, but where is the firm really uniquely positioned to take advantage of and have some tailwinds in the future?

Noel Archard:

I think one of the hallmarks of the firm and where we get a lot of traction on various platforms and it's not just in any one region again, is not only what investments are we bringing to bear, but how are we partnering around those investments? And we're very happy and we have been very successful engaging with different platforms around again, not only what are your needs, but what would you need to support this within your firm and then can we build that specific to you? And so we have, our competition AB, 850, 860 billion in AUM, the folks we compete against are the trillion dollar plus shops. We are regularly going toe to toe with firms that are significantly larger than us and having a really good win rate against that because of our position within some of these platforms and the work that we've done to try and be a good partner. And I think we're constantly testing that to ensure that we're delivering quality both product and service.

I think one of the areas where we've shown some really good leadership is thinking about the tax side of the equation, how do you actually operate, especially on some of our US products, but this is something we're hearing more and more globally. Now again, every country is a slightly different tax regime, the things that you're going to be sensitive to, but being aware of whether it's tax or whether it's enhancing the income stream because maybe the income's not tax, but a capital gain is, whatever it might look like, being really thoughtful about that, what is that end thing that the client ends up with? If it's total return, great, we have a solution for that. If it's income, if it's tax deferral, whatever that might be, that's where I think we, again, that investor end experience, not just the total return that they're getting, but the full experience And the start of it through the end is where I think we actually are really well positioned to continue to succeed if we keep true to that test and learn, test and learn mantra.

Lance Glinn:

So Noel, as we wrap up our conversation, when you look at the next chapter for both the ETF industry and AllianceBernstein, we can start with the ETF industry. What do you think will matter most for long-term success?

Noel Archard:

For ETFs to continue to succeed. If I look at the industry first, I think the momentum is there and we're seeing from a flows perspective and from a utilization perspective, even if you look outside US borders, I feel like for years people are like, well, ETFs grow in the US because of their tax efficiency. That aspect doesn't exist elsewhere. But when you look at the trillions of dollars in ETFs outside of the ... It's not even like a couple of trillion, it's multiples of trillions. Again, those other features of transparency of price control or ability to tighter price control, buy as much or as little as you want, all of those things have continued to pan out. What will continue for ETFs to thrive again are things like the growth of models and people this idea that over 20 years has continued to grow, that started institutional investing just being like, look, asset allocation is your first most important decision. And then where do you go from there?

That's pretty pervasive now. That's something we're doing a lot of research on too and talking to clients about because we might've learned some wrong lessons over the last 40 years around asset allocation is super important, but the potholes are really important too, the path dependency. That's a whole other conversation. But the most important thing, and volatility also really is a friend to ETFs. [inaudible 00:31:51] there's volatility because you have people on both sides of that coin, we see ETFs grow. The only thing that will really hurt is if ETFs fail to deliver on what is on the label. And that's always the ... And I think everyone's been very careful about that for the most part, about having products ... And this is somewhere like, wow, it's getting pretty granular. Single stock, triple low, whatever it is. There's an ETF for just about everyone. And some of them get heavier usage and some get lighter because of that audience. But as long as they do what they're supposed to do, that's an okay thing. And I think that's going to continue to be a tailwind to growth.

For us within AB specifically, I think our ETFs are going to continue to grow and our business is going to continue to grow because we don't look at the ETFs as the end all, be all delivery vehicle. It is something that is part of being way simplistic here. It's like you want vanilla, chocolate, cup, or cone. Whatever you need for your book of business, we are going to help you get there. And if private credit or some form of alternative exposure is needed or real assets or whatever it is, we don't necessarily need to jam that into one of our SMAs or into our ETFs. We're going to give you an interval fund and we're going to give you completion funds on the ETF side and then a seg account or an SMA here. And I think that just goes back to understand how these things work together holistically and present those options out to the marketplace and that becomes way more powerful.

Lance Glinn:

Noel, I really appreciated the conversation. Thanks so much for joining us inside the ICE house.

Noel Archard:

Thank you very much.

Speaker 3:

That's our conversation for this week. Remember to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen and follow us on X at ICEhousePodcast. From the New York Stock Exchange, we'll talk to you again next week inside the ICE house. Information contained in this podcast was obtained in part from publicly available sources and not independently verified. Neither ICE nor its affiliates make any representations or warranties express or implied as to the accuracy or completeness of the information and do not sponsor, approve, or endorse any of the content herein, all of which is presented solely for informational and educational purposes. Nothing herein constitutes an offer to sell, a solicitation have been offered to buy any security or a recommendation of any security or trading practice. Some portions of the proceeding conversation may have been edited for the purpose of length or clarity.