Lance Glinn:

Welcome in to another episode of the Inside the ICE House podcast. Today's guest is Jonathan Cirtain. He is the CEO of Axiom Space. Jonathan, thanks so much for joining us Inside the ICE House. Happy to have you here.

Jonathan Cirtain:

Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Lance Glinn:

So Jonathan, when you look at the space ecosystem overall, I think it's clear that we are in a period of transformation, but also one where there are still gaps in infrastructure and challenges that need to be addressed. What do you see as those biggest challenges? Do you see them as challenges and how is Axiom Space positioning itself to solve them?

Jonathan Cirtain:

So there are a variety of different opportunities. I don't know that I would necessarily characterize them as challenges, but there are a variety of different opportunities that are emerging as the consequence of being able to transport infrastructure to space becomes more accessible. So certainly with the larger launch vehicles that are coming from a variety of different providers, there's additional access to space. There's also additional orbits that you can get to. And so that's opening up a lot of different opportunities. So the opportunity here is how would you go about building out infrastructure and what are the near term priorities around that infrastructure? And so my argument would be, first of all, we've maintained access to low earth orbit for 25 years now with the International Space Station.

We've demonstrated that we know how to live and work in space. So we need to continue that legacy by building the replacement infrastructure necessary to maintain that human presence. So that's one thing. Another thing, the technology's evolved a lot since these things were originally launched and the supply chain has remained mature. So you can utilize the supply chain that exists and add additional technological capability to really make a huge go of access to low earth orbit and what you can do in low earth orbit with microgravity once you get there.

Lance Glinn:

So if you see these as opportunities rather than as challenges, give us a little bit of an explainer on who Axiom Space is and how you are trying to take advantage of these opportunities.

Jonathan Cirtain:

Well, so Axiom Space is a company meant to develop the necessary capabilities for humanity to explore, live and develop production capabilities in low earth orbit for the benefit of humans here on earth. So we're building that necessary infrastructure to support that capabilities' development. So you need a suit program, you need a station program, you need an astronaut program to have a fully vertically integrated services capability for that low earth orbit human enabled settlement. So we're building all that infrastructure. We've launched now four private astronaut missions, taken 12 paying customers to the International Space Station as part of NASA's private astronaut mission solicitation. So we're well versed in the astronaut program. The astronaut program also is a payloads program.

This kind of gets lost sometimes and perhaps Axiom does a poor job of advocating for itself in this regard, but we've taken 160 payloads to the International Space Station and that is the work that the astronauts are doing. So we're both training astronauts how to go and live and work in space safely, but we're also developing the content that they take with them. So that's step number one. Step number two, you need a station of your own. The International Space Station's a great place to do R&D, but with 20 some odd nations all participating in it and some of them not necessarily getting along so great, having a commercial enterprise on that is just not practical. But a lot of lessons have been learned and a lot of technology's been developed.

And if you have a commercial owned and operated space station, you can convert research into manufacturing. So you need that necessary attribute. And then, finally, the International... I think a couple of Russian cosmonauts might be doing a EVA, an extravehicular activity either yesterday or today to go out and attach a scientific instrument. It's not necessarily for maintenance all the time. Sometimes they go outside and they do things that have meaningful research and development value. So we have a suit for that and that suit also is going to be used in the Artemis program for our return to the moon.

Lance Glinn:

And we're going to talk a little bit about that suit as well as the station just a little bit later in our conversation. So all of these opportunities have arisen. Axiom Space has the opportunity, again, using that word, to take advantage of them. But how do you differentiate yourself among what has now become a lot of competitors trying to fight for the same spaces?

Jonathan Cirtain:

Well, so again, I believe that Axiom's differentiated because it has done some of these things already. We've flown astronauts to the International Space Station. We've done 160 different payloads from 40 some odd countries. So we have an ecosystem already. We're not playing catch up there. We're the only ones manufacturing a suit. A suit's a decades long development effort and we're taking legacy information as well as new technologies and really strong global best in class partners to build this suit and we're going to have it available later this year.

Lance Glinn:

Wow.

Jonathan Cirtain:

That's a pretty big moat. If someone wanted to start from scratch and build out a new suit, it'd be hundreds of millions of dollars in development and years of effort. And so we're already there. So that's a differentiator because we beat them on that one. And for the space station, we also benefit from having been working with NASA for the better part of six years now on our space station architecture and the hardware that we're building. So we're utilizing NASA in its expertise, the supply chains in Europe and throughout North America to provide the content that is derived technology from the space station. So we don't have to go and reinvent a lot of the content that's been manufactured. We're taking best in class and repurpose that. And so we're in the middle of assembling vehicles at this point as well. And so I think we're much further along than others in the development of things that actually are going to service human residency, not just demonstration efforts.

Lance Glinn:

So you were recently in attendance at the NYSE Space Summit, which brought together some of the most influential voices in the industry, yourself included. In terms of investor sentiment and how leaders are thinking, what were your biggest takeaways of the day?

Jonathan Cirtain:

Well, so I think that there is a growing amount of investor interest in space. I think that's obvious when looking at all the IPOs and seed round announcements and whatnot. There's a lot of interest, but there's also a... I think investors are becoming more in tune, savvy, educated about the space industry and they're better able to understand what options there are and where there are challenges to some of the options. So in particular for Axiom Space, the challenge that we hear from investors is NASA's solicitation strategy. It's taken on NASA a while to actually release a request for proposals and there's been a bit of ambiguity about the approach that they would employ in that solicitation, how they want to procure services from the private sector for that capability.

And so that causes investors a bit of pause. I think with Jared Isaacman at the helm, we're seeing a lot of increases in announcing activities, completion of tasks, starts of new programs, and I think that bodes well for us as well. And I think that turns out positively with investors starting to see that the administrator's got his arms around all the necessary things at the agency to get these programs in place. And we're really looking forward to having that RFP out soon. And I think with that investor sentiment, we'll go through the roof.

Lance Glinn:

So Axiom Space has been at the forefront, I know, of building what is expected to become the world's first commercial space station. So as we sit today, and we're recording in late May, where do just things stand in terms of developments, key milestones, and what still needs to happen before we see that vision and what's being designed fully in orbit or fully realized in orbit?

Jonathan Cirtain:

So it's exciting times for us. Our first two vehicles are in production. The primary structures, well, all of the structures, the pressure vessel and the service module, the pressure vessels where the people are. The service modules where we put a lot of the equipment that operate the space station propulsion systems, fuel tanks, all of that kind of stuff, those are all manufactured. They're going through some materials characterization tests in Turin, Italy. Our partner, Thales Alenia, is manufacturing those. They made the Columbus module for the space station that's evidence of one of these pick a strong supply chain partner. So they're manufacturing that content there while we're getting the other hardware that we need for assembly. We announced a relationship with Redwire where we're buying solar arrays from them that are well tested equipment. So we're accumulating all the pieces that we need to assemble our first vehicle, which we should start assembling here in the next few months.

So we've got hardware coming in, long lead items already developed. So first two vehicles are underway. That first vehicle is intended to launch in 2028. So that's the one that'll go to the International Space Station berth at nadir port number two and will persist for a couple of months and then depart and rendezvous with our second module, the habitat. And at that point, they'll mate and we'll have a fully functional foreperson capable space station sometime in mid 2029 with people starting to go there a few months after that.

Lance Glinn:

You make it sound so easy. You make it sound like it's just like, "Oh, we're just going to send station one up or vehicle one up. And then vehicle two will go up and they'll mate and here we are, we'll be sitting one day and boom, all good together." But yet, there's so much complexity to it. And I find it so fascinating that yes, speaking to it, you could just say, "Hey, they're going to go up. They're going to come together and then we'll have a, I think you said a four person functional space station." But there's so many things that have to happen behind the scenes just for one of the vehicles to go up. Nonetheless, two, talk about the science behind it and just the work that goes in to actually having this happen, you said in 2029.

Jonathan Cirtain:

So that's a great question. It's got a couple of different parts to it. Part number one, NASA has demonstrated over 50 years of doing complex mission execution, the process steps. There's a process. If you follow the process, you'll deliver a vehicle that works and they do that. Exquisite vehicles like the SLS for the Artemis missions and smaller launchers and they coordinate with Northrop Grumman and ULA and Boeing and Blue Origin and SpaceX and Rocket Lab on how those vehicles work. So if you follow the process, you can get to a vehicle that works. The question is, can you do it in a commercially viable way? And so the emergence of a lot of different technologies help you manage the processes to get all of these parts in, know the sequence of assembly, know how you verify and validate that these parts are going to work, know how to test those parts for lifetime environment, et cetera.

So a lot of that content for how you do this is now in place. So all you have to do is decide what it is that you want to do, apply the process, obviously with an appropriate amount of capital and you can get to a place where you've got something that's functional and viable. That's the difference. The process is now well tested. People that would tell you that they're going to come up with a new process and they're going to run fast and they're going to do these things, they're missing the point. There's a process that works. And so we're going to stick with that process, but we're going to innovate on top of that process and find ways to accelerate where we can, where we can improve technology where we should and how we maintain the highest degrees of safety standards because we're flying humans. You can't take a shortcut.

Lance Glinn:

So you would say the innovation doesn't replace or change the process, the innovation supplements the process?

Jonathan Cirtain:

Totally. That's 100% right.

Lance Glinn:

So I want to get a little personal real quick. I think it's fascinating. You're leading a company that is going to do and has already done wonderful things and has already achieved success, will achieve greater success in the future. We obviously just talked about the science behind getting multiple vehicles up into space, having them come together to form this space station. If I were to tell a younger Jonathan Cirtain that you would be leading Axiom Space in doing all of this, what would he be saying? Did you always have in your mind, this is something I want to do? This is a field that I want to approach, a field I want to get into, an industry that I want to try to make it dent in. Where did your passion... Because I could sense that there's passion from our conversation. Where did your passion originally come from?

Jonathan Cirtain:

Well, it was an evolution of my growing up. When I was a child, I didn't aspire to be a scientist or an engineer. I enjoyed building things and I enjoyed math and I enjoyed those things, but I really enjoyed being an athlete. And when my course was run at being an athlete, I had to take a hard look at, well, what am I actually going to do because being an athlete is not it. And so I had to spend some time with myself and think about what I wanted to do. I had a conversation with my dad and he made me promise that I'm going to go off and do something that I find enjoyable and that I am willing to spend the rest of my life on. And so I ended up in physics. And while in physics, I learned that I really liked building things. It goes back to when I was a kid. And so building things and applying them to really hard problems was massively stimulating for me and one thing led to another, and now, I'm here.

Lance Glinn:

Now, you're here. It's really interesting to see. Did you ever have any... Because when people think they want to get involved in space or the industry, they immediately go to, "I want to be an astronaut." I feel like that's probably, you can ask 100 different kids, maybe 50, especially now with the world watching Artemis II, 50 of them might say, "I want to be an astronaut." I want to be like those people who went up on Artemis II and they get to go on missions and go into space and do all those cool things. Was that an initial dream of yours at any point? Did you think, "Hey, if I one day get into space, I'd like to be an astronaut, I'd like to be on the actual vehicles that are going up there?"

Jonathan Cirtain:

If you could fly on the enterprise, I would go, but to get to space is horrifying. Wearing a space suit is horrifying. I mean, I'm claustrophobic. Sitting in this suit, I'm like, "I'm glad there's only two of us."

Lance Glinn:

Sure, sure.

Jonathan Cirtain:

But I had to get to a point where I was at least knew myself well enough to know that that was not something that I really would be successful at, but I did apply to be an astronaut twice-

Lance Glinn:

Oh, wow.

Jonathan Cirtain:

... when I was working at NASA and my current astronaut, Peggy Whitson, was the chief astronaut at the time and she kicked me out of the program twice.

Lance Glinn:

Wow.

Jonathan Cirtain:

And so I kid her about it all the time, but she did me such a favor because had I gotten in, I would've really learned what claustrophobia is all about.

Lance Glinn:

Wow. Wow. Well, would it have been...

Jonathan Cirtain:

I mean, the Crew Dragon is not bigger than this room.

Lance Glinn:

Would it have been one of those get in, start to take off?

Jonathan Cirtain:

I'll be a failure totally.

Lance Glinn:

Going into your radio, can we turn this thing around please? Can we please turn this thing around? Can we turn this thing around?

Jonathan Cirtain:

Oh, yeah. So I have a company with a spacesuit. People are like, "Why don't you get in the spacesuit?" And I'm like, "Why don't you get in the spacesuit?"

Lance Glinn:

I think a lot of this, and I mentioned Artemis II recently, obviously there has been not only with that, but just in general lately, such an increased enthusiasm, excitement, a renewed interest in space as a whole and the space industry and space exploration. Is it Artemis II? Is it just the way people are sort of thinking here in 2026? What would you credit as the driving forces behind this surge of interest? And do you think it's something that's more momentary or do you think that this could be something that's really long-lasting, this real interest and excitement?

Jonathan Cirtain:

I think that this is an inherent attribute of Americans and more broadly our allies and maybe just all humans. People are enamored by exploration. They want to go and learn more about something that's foreign to them, and once they go there, they want to figure out how to use it, use the resources there so they can stay. So this is just an inherent attribute of humanity. If you look at there was a recent poll, maybe it was Bloomberg that looked at this locally or just in the United States and more than 60% of Americans are interested in space in some form, fashion or another. 79% of Americans are proud of our space program. So it's just something that everybody is for. I think when we don't have the cadence of activity that just have this something that we can talk about in public discourse, it becomes something that's not necessarily forgotten, it's not discussed, but then something like Artemis happens and you get to see exactly how much this means to so many people.

Lance Glinn:

Absolutely. And with conversations like the one we're having, and we talked about it on the way down to where we record about how there's a lot of conversations I have with leaders that I know a lot about already, whether I know a lot about them, I know a lot about the industry they're in, I know a lot about their company, but space isn't necessarily, one, I consider myself like the average person to it. I'm a novice. I obviously am really enthralled and excited by everything that's happening as of late when it comes to space exploration, but I still don't know a lot about it and that's why I enjoyed conversations like these. How important is the education component for Axiom Space to help people like myself, others who have this sense of excitement and interest now in space to learn more and to better understand everything that you're doing and companies like yourself are doing?

Jonathan Cirtain:

Well, so I think we have work to do. Axiom has work to do educating the public why we are doing these things, but we do these things not just because there's a commercial opportunity, but we do these things because it's for the betterment of humanity. And I mean that earnestly when I say it. We can go to space, use microgravity as a resource and learn how to make things that make life on earth better. It's not that we want to leave, we just want to go and find ways to make it better here because there's no better place in the universe to live than earth, but we can use space to better things on earth. There are opportunities to manufacture new pharmaceuticals for the betterment of humanity, but we don't know how yet.

We just know that we probably can. There's ways to make new fiber optic materials, new microstructure materials for the betterment of earth. We know that we can make these things, but we don't even know exactly how to scale it up, what impacts they're going to have, what the overall endpoints are, those types of things. So we've demonstrated that there are some things that we can do and maybe there are some things that we should do and now we need to explore those things, figure out what we can do for folks here on earth and then get after it.

Lance Glinn:

So you've also had the opportunity to work closely with Kam Ghaffarian and obviously he's someone who's been very interested in space for a very long time. Kam back in 2016 was one of the founders obviously of Axiom Space as you know. How has he just helped shape the culture, the strategic direction of the company and also on a more personal note, your leadership and your leadership style and how you now lead Axiom Space?

Jonathan Cirtain:

Well, Kam's our executive chairman. I mean, he's involved in all sorts of aspects of the company from helping raise capital to how we consider our culture to strategies around what vehicles we're going to build and communicating our vision to decision makers and stakeholders on a global scale. So Kam's our most valuable asset for his advocacy, for his trust in us, for the investments he's made, all of those different things just differentiate Kam in a way that no other person could contribute to our company the way he does. Executive chair is one thing, but Kam is also really a visionary in a lot of different areas of pursuit and having someone around that you can share those ideas with just gives you a lot more perspective than perhaps you would have if you were struggling through that content on your own or in your unified company. And so having somebody with that broad vision, with that broad access with all these different interests, it's really a pleasure. And so he's been a great mentor of mine. He's an awesome boss to have and he's obviously an incredible investor.

Lance Glinn:

I want to pivot the conversation to partnerships because you've mentioned a lot about partnerships throughout different answers of the conversation. Partnership, they're obviously playing a role in Axiom Space's success, the success that the company's had so far, the success that the company will have moving forward. One instance, Axiom partnered with Astrolab, which recently was selected by NASA. I want to make sure I get this right, as one of two providers of a crude lunar rover for the Artemis program. More broadly, how do you think about the role of partnerships in accelerating your goals and just Axiom Space's overall presence? Because there's a lot of things you could do alone, but having partners that you can trust, that you've worked with before that you know are going to do their jobs well I'm sure makes things and makes success a lot easier.

Jonathan Cirtain:

Well, so we partner with the best. I mean, that's our intentions. Super excited about our relationship with Astrolab, great that our suit and our astronauts now have a ride on the moon. So that's a great collaboration for us. SpaceX, I mean, all of our missions to the International Space Station have been with SpaceX. It's a great success story there. The Crew Dragon is an amazing vehicle and we're glad to collaborate with SpaceX on those missions. And so it depends on the need, but those partnerships span all sorts of different things, vehicle transport in those two instances. But Prada is our partner on our spacesuit because Prada is world-class in the manufacturing of soft goods and the types of stitching necessary to seal joints and all sorts of things that probably aren't evident.

We're shopping at the Prada store in Soho or wherever, but they are world-class in the manufacturing of flame retardant materials and materials that can maintain pressure, sails for high-speed yachts, as an example, those are pressure fabrics. So they're world-class, Oakley, world-class, and Oakley's providing the coating for the visors so that it protects the astronauts face from the sun, Nokia for communication systems. So partnerships for us aren't just commercial exchanges. These are people that are developing capabilities so that we can make sure the humans we've been entrusted with are going to be safe and have an experience that's meaningful.

Lance Glinn:

Prada, Oakley, obviously those are two brands that a lot of people could resonate. And it's so funny to partner or it's so not funny, I shouldn't say it. It's so interesting to partner with them because no one would sort of think about those two brands when it comes to space or space innovation. They would think about, "Oh, I'm wearing a product of this or I'm wearing a part of that. I have Oakley's sunglass. I have Oakley sunglasses." So you just think of it in your practical use on a day-to-day basis, but you don't think about it and how it could impact other or how companies like that could impact other industries like a space industry, like working with you guys at Axiom Space to develop the suit or develop the visor that you said obviously helps these astronauts see when they are up in space.

If we zoom out a bit, partnerships have historically been critical in major technological places, and space, I think, is no different. What role do you believe collaboration, whether it's with a Prada, a Astrolab, an Oakley, whomever it might be, what role do you see collaboration having and who will ultimately win this new era of space?

Jonathan Cirtain:

Well, we always go further and faster together. So those partnerships just accelerate and de risk our optionality on this exploration adventure that we're on. So those partnerships bring in experts in critical component manufacturing and all sorts of other different things, transportation services, communication services, compute with Nvidia, all those different capabilities when brought together all at the same time give you an opportunity that you wouldn't have if you tried to do many of those things on your own. There is the need to be vertically integrated in some cases, but there's also the opportunity to have a distributed partnership because you're bringing in those best in class. So I think partnerships from the supply chain are of value, but also spaces for everybody.

And so that means international partnerships are also important because you want to bring in as many of the nations as you can to collaborate with you because you want them to benefit from all of this as well, maybe on a commercial basis, but also workforce development and development of their own technologies and indigenous aspirations and we want to fly their astronauts. So it's collaboration both in the supply chain on the private side and on the public side with nations around the globe. Like I said, we've flown 12 astronauts to date. I think all of them, maybe one American out of that whole bunch. So a lot of international interest in space as well. So we work really hard at our international partnerships both on the government and on the private sector side.

Lance Glinn:

So Jonathan, as we get closer to the end of our conversation, there has been conversation about what sustained human presence in low earth orbit will look like moving forward. How do you envision that future evolving and what role will Axiom Space play in it?

Jonathan Cirtain:

We're going to be where they go. So that low earth orbit destination, at least the first version of that will be Axiom station, at least, that's my aspiration. And so I think here in the near term, say three to five years from now, astronauts flying through a private astronaut mission construct will be traveling to Axiom Space Station and learning how to work in microgravity. That's three to five years. I think the fascinating thing to think about and we're doing that, we're doing that. We're on track to do that. We have a plan, we have the funding, we're in the middle of doing that, but what are we going to do in 10 years? In 10 years, we're going to have 12, maybe 16 people in space in lower earth orbit learning how to do low rate manufacturing. I don't know of what, but that's what they're going to be doing and they're going to be trained from nations across the planet in preparation for those folks to one day go to the settlement that NASA's currently getting ready to deploy.

So that training ground will be up and operational. We'll be doing meaningful work that's delivering goods for folks here back on planet earth. Meanwhile, we're training that next crew of astronauts to go and live at the south pole of the moon and explore the resources available there. So that's 10 years from now. Then what are we doing 20 years from now? 20 years from now, maybe there are multiple space stations. There's certainly a settlement on the moon. So there's a new logistics chain that's now been set up from earth to LEO, LEO to the moon. And what does that mean in terms of the necessary infrastructure that we have to build? So we're contemplating where we're going to be for 5 to 10 years, but internally within the company, we're also starting to think through what does it mean to be here in 20 and 50 years and what do we need to start doing to make sure that we're capable of delivering at scale at that point because it's not that far away.

Lance Glinn:

Yeah, it's not that far away and it's going to come quick. Last question for you. How do you then gauge success? Because there's success you can gauge from numbers on a piece of paper. There's the success that is intangible. How do you or how will you gauge success moving forward allowing you to ensure that Axiom Space is meeting the milestones you want to meet, but also doing it the right way and doing it for the right reasons?

Jonathan Cirtain:

We continue our track record of successfully safely launching humans to low earth orbit, providing them meaningful work to do and bringing them home safely.

Lance Glinn:

Jonathan, thank you so much for joining us Inside the ICE House.

Jonathan Cirtain:

Thank you so much for having me.